Anyone take philosophy classeor read from Jeff Neilson who sustains the Prophet but

[grapevine]

I remember when FP said tell your Senators to support amendment to define marriage as One man one Woman he wrote to trib on how he sustained the brethren but were wrong. What makes him an expert on when they are wrong, If every person got a revelation for the prophet that they were wrong wow mass confusion in the church. Is his belief's superior to the Lords?

Wrote a book about leaderless organizations saying we don't need leaders. By saying that he is setting himself up for a leader. Lost job at BYU as adjucant faculty for questioning the leaders. Criticizing not allowing people to witness Temple Weddings, and other things church does as well.

He himself is someone who wants a following by encouraging disobedience to the Lords servants. I only read trib article not his books. If anyone did what did you think of them. Read the 1st section of the D and C to describe him were it talks of people walking after there own image. Is it up to him to sit in judgment of when the leaders are wrong. Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page did that and got a severe chewing.

[Harry Tic]

I remember when FP said tell your Senators to support amendment to define marriage as One man one Woman he wrote to trib on how he sustained the brethren but were wrong. What makes him an expert on when they are wrong, If every person got a revelation for the prophet that they were wrong wow mass confusion in the church. Is his belief's superior to the Lords?

Wrote a book about leaderless organizations saying we don't need leaders. By saying that he is setting himself up for a leader. Lost job at BYU as adjucant faculty for questioning the leaders. Criticizing not allowing people to witness Temple Weddings, and other things church does as well.

He himself is someone who wants a following by encouraging disobedience to the Lords servants. I only read trib article not his books. If anyone did what did you think of them. Read the 1st section of the D and C to describe him were it talks of people walking after there own image. Is it up to him to sit in judgment of when the leaders are wrong. Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page did that and got a severe chewing.

Grapevine stirring the pot with an oldie but a goodie...

I'm sure this has been rehashed ad nauseam on CS (I've been told that there's a search function but my personal secretary took the day off, so I'm muddling through as best I can). But since I never spoke my piece on CUF (or Cougarguard, or whatever the venue was back in the day)... I'll just say that there may be many worthy martyrs for the cause but Jeff Nielson is not one of them. I suspect that many folks who only followed the story in the popular press spun this as a case of academic freedom and were impressed that he was an 'adjunct' faculty member at BYU. In my neck of the woods, 'adjunct faculty member' more often than not means 'warm body with an appropriate graduate degree that can help us cover some of the 101 courses that have to be taught' (there are, of course, exceptions and I'm not saying that adjunct faculty are not an exploited class--they are). But adjunct faculty are typically hired on an as-needed basis from semester to semester, they do not have a research assignment, etc. In short, they are not in the same universe as tenured faculty in many ways. Again, that's not a judgment, just a statement of fact.

His letter to the Trib was either (a) remarkably naive, which suggests a degree of incompetence that should have disqualified him from further teaching opportunities at BYU; or (b) deliberately provocative, crafted with an eye to making himself into a martyr. In which case he duly got himself 'fired' (or, more accurately, did not get another contract) but lacked standing to qualify as a true martyr anyway.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Grapevine stirring the pot with an oldie but a goodie...

I'm sure this has been rehashed ad nauseam on CS (I've been told that there's a search function but my personal secretary took the day off, so I'm muddling through as best I can). But since I never spoke my piece on CUF (or Cougarguard, or whatever the venue was back in the day)... I'll just say that there may be many worthy martyrs for the cause but Jeff Nielson is not one of them. I suspect that many folks who only followed the story in the popular press spun this as a case of academic freedom and were impressed that he was an 'adjunct' faculty member at BYU. In my neck of the woods, 'adjunct faculty member' more often than not means 'warm body with an appropriate graduate degree that can help us cover some of the 101 courses that have to be taught' (there are, of course, exceptions and I'm not saying that adjunct faculty are not an exploited class--they are). But adjunct faculty are typically hired on an as-needed basis from semester to semester, they do not have a research assignment, etc. In short, they are not in the same universe as tenured faculty in many ways. Again, that's not a judgment, just a statement of fact.

His letter to the Trib was either (a) remarkably naive, which suggests a degree of incompetence that should have disqualified him from further teaching opportunities at BYU; or (b) deliberately provocative, crafted with an eye to making himself into a martyr. In which case he duly got himself 'fired' (or, more accurately, did not get another contract) but lacked standing to qualify as a true martyr anyway.

Agree on all counts.

[byu71]

Agree on all counts.

Not sure what you and Harry are saying, so I am asking this. If he had been a real professor and not an adjunct faculty and had done what he had did, are you saying he wouldn't have been let go?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Not sure what you and Harry are saying, so I am asking this. If he had been a real professor and not an adjunct faculty and had done what he had did, are you saying he wouldn't have been let go?

I am saying you can't draw any conclusions from his case. An adjunct faculty has no contract and there is no long-term commitment from the university whatsoever.

[thesaint258]

While I didn't have any classes with Nielsen, I was in that department when he was. Other students thought he was average--Harry's description of a "warm body" is accurate. Nielsen should have foreseen what would happen once his op-ed was published. The philosophy department tolerates a lot. As students, we always had freedom to write whatever we wanted, and we would get good grades as long as our arguments were adequately supported. It was always clear, however, that our professors were very much believing Mormons. (Not in the TBM sense that is sometimes discussed. These guys are well-aware of the issues we've discussed; in fact, most of them would fit in here pretty well.) Nielsen pushed too far, and when you're working on a contractual basis, and there are a ton of people who'd love to take his spot without being controversial, the non-renewal of Nielsen's contract was unsurprising to me.

[byu71]

I am saying you can't draw any conclusions from his case. An adjunct faculty has no contract and there is no long-term commitment from the university whatsoever.

I am totally unfamiliar with how things are actually done when it comes to professors at BYU. My perception would be that if I were a professor I would really be careful about what I said in a public forum as I don't think I could get much support anywhere if I was canned for my thoughts. Is my perception totally wrong?