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  • #16
    I think most of the modesty rhetoric in Mormonism is damaging and false. Babies are not sexual. Hell, shoulders and knee caps aren't sexual. They're not shameful. They're not dirty. I don't think that's exactly how modesty is framed most of the time, but I know that it's exceedingly easy to feel ashamed of one's body when the constant message is that anything exposed beyond these imaginary lines on the female form is immodest. And we're taking modesty too far. Many women fall victim to the self-appointed Modesty Police. It's a method to judge one's worthiness and commitment to God. I find this bizarre. I've heard multiple accounts recently that the new standards for bathing suits at girls' camp is a "modest one piece, with a t-shirt and knee-length shorts over." This is insanity in my opinion.

    I've heard the argument that you want to prepare girls to wear garments so they don't have to totally adjust their wardrobes. Newflash: they'll probably have to anyway. I threw out a bevy of modest clothes when I went through the temple that just didn't work with garments because they had square necks and the garment peeked out or the gigantic batwing sleeves poked out of the regular shirt's cap sleeve or a variety of other issues. Garments are poorly constructed and ill-fitting; it takes an assortment of layers and tricks to keep them adequately covered. It's maddening. And I don't understand holding a 4-year-old child to the same dress standards as an endowed adult based on a ceremony she might actually never participate in.

    I think you teach modesty in terms of self-respect and appropriateness for the circumstance. Honor your Heavenly Mother in whose image you're created. Honor yourself. You wouldn't wear a mini skirt to a business interview. Wear a swimsuit to swim. Wear workout clothes to the gym. In my opinion this is very different from teaching them they must keep their shoulders and kneecaps covered, or that they're responsible for keeping the young men from thinking sexual thoughts about them. If we ever have a daughter, she can wear thick-strapped tank tops and mid-thigh shorts and skirts if she wants.

    Of course I've been called a feminist apostate recently, so what do I know?
    "You know, I was looking at your shirt and your scarf and I was thinking that if you had leaned over, I could have seen everything." ~Trial Ad Judge

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
      But you have to think about all those teen boys who will go right for the little factory when they see a bare shoulder!
      I can only speak from my own experience, but when I was in middle/high school, girls who wore tank tops, short shorts, etc. got me going far, far more than girls who did not. Body types notwithstanding (mostly).

      This is a terrible reason to force girls to dress a certain way, but it affected me quite a bit.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SandYFan View Post
        I can only speak from my own experience, but when I was in middle/high school, girls who wore tank tops, short shorts, etc. got me going far, far more than girls who did not. Body types notwithstanding (mostly).

        This is a terrible reason to force girls to dress a certain way, but it affected me quite a bit.
        I think this can become the case about literally almost anything. There's hijab porn, for heaven's sake. In China, they used to line women up behind a curtain and expose only their feet and ankles and judge a woman's beauty by the comeliness of her feet. Cultural conditioning doesn't make a woman's knees and shoulders inherently sexual.
        "You know, I was looking at your shirt and your scarf and I was thinking that if you had leaned over, I could have seen everything." ~Trial Ad Judge

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        • #19
          Originally posted by SandYFan View Post
          This is something my wife feels incredibly strongly about. See this link for an overview (and I apologize if this has been discussed to death):

          http://www.feministmormonhousewives....nd-the-spirit/

          I am not sure where I stand here. On the one hand, I do agree that the only people who think a 6-year-old in a tank top is sexually attractive are pedophiles. On the other hand, there are definitely pedophiles out there.

          And on one hand, I get that pre-teens really shouldn't have to worry about modesty, but I understand how learning these principles at age 7 makes it easier when you're age 17.

          And on the final hand, I'm a dude (as has been previously stated). In the same way I don't feel comfortable judging women who breastfeed in public (thanks, CB), I don't feel comfortable judging the worthiness of a female (especially a minor) on how she's dressed. It feels creepy.

          To top it off, we welcomed a new addition to our family back in February, and she happens to be a little girl. So I kind of feel like I need to figure it out pretty soon.

          Any thoughts?
          When questions like this are raised I am reminded how glad I am to have only boys. I know I'll miss out on a lot not having a girl, but the drama . . .

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
            I think this can become the case about literally almost anything. There's hijab porn, for heaven's sake. In China, they used to line women up behind a curtain and expose only their feet and ankles and judge a woman's beauty by the comeliness of her feet. Cultural conditioning doesn't make a woman's knees and shoulders inherently sexual.
            I agree completely. How far does that go, however? Are breasts inherently sexual?

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            • #21
              My daughters can wear what they want now but they're getting the burqa treatment once they get boobs. Sorry, girls. Dad doesn't want you to grow up.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by SandYFan View Post
                I agree completely. How far does that go, however? Are breasts inherently sexual?
                Breasts are inherently designed for breastfeeding, which is a byproduct of having a baby which is a byproduct of having sex. But I think that only goes so far. Breastfeeding isn't sexual and it's not sexual to bare a portion of one's breast to feed a hungry child. Inasmuch as people get squicked out by public breastfeeding because of cultural norms, I think our society's obsession with breasts is largely cultural, too. Women in cultures around the world run around topless like it ain't no thang.
                "You know, I was looking at your shirt and your scarf and I was thinking that if you had leaned over, I could have seen everything." ~Trial Ad Judge

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
                  Breasts are inherently designed for breastfeeding, which is a byproduct of having a baby which is a byproduct of having sex. But I think that only goes so far. Breastfeeding isn't sexual and it's not sexual to bare a portion of one's breast to feed a hungry child. Inasmuch as people get squicked out by public breastfeeding because of cultural norms, I think our society's obsession with breasts is largely cultural, too. Women in cultures around the world run around topless like it ain't no thang.
                  Exactly. So in other cultures, being topless isn't a big deal and is in no way sexually arousing. But in America it is (I'm not getting into the breast feeding thing, but let's just say I agree with you).

                  So are America's determinations of sexually arousing screwed up? Should America's determinations factor into the Church's modesty teachings?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SandYFan View Post
                    Exactly. So in other cultures, being topless isn't a big deal and is in no way sexually arousing. But in America it is (I'm not getting into the breast feeding thing, but let's just say I agree with you).

                    So are America's determinations of sexually arousing screwed up? Should America's determinations factor into the Church's modesty teachings?
                    Yes, they are screwed up and in my opinion, no, they shouldn't. Teach self-respect and good sense and allow people to govern themselves. I don't think the church has any business advocating a particular dress code for any culture.
                    "You know, I was looking at your shirt and your scarf and I was thinking that if you had leaned over, I could have seen everything." ~Trial Ad Judge

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
                      Yes, they are screwed up and in my opinion, no, they shouldn't. Teach self-respect and good sense and allow people to govern themselves. I don't think the church has any business advocating a particular dress code for any culture.
                      YES! Self-respect and self-esteem will guard your daughters better than any dress code could ever hope to achieve.
                      Dyslexics are teople poo...

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                        YES! Self-respect and self-esteem will guard your daughters better than any dress code could ever hope to achieve.
                        Such as having enough self-respect and self-esteem to recognize you don't have to dress provocatively to get the attention/approval of others.
                        Everything in life is an approximation.

                        http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                          Such as having enough self-respect and self-esteem to recognize you don't have to dress provocatively to get the attention/approval of others.
                          Sure. But that's not the same thing as never wearing a tank top or shorter shorts. Provocative is an interesting term. Wearing a burqa to school could be deemed provocative. And who says that a particular clothing choice is always about getting attention or approval? Someone might perceive a sundress as provocative when the wearer just thought it was too warm for anything else.
                          "You know, I was looking at your shirt and your scarf and I was thinking that if you had leaned over, I could have seen everything." ~Trial Ad Judge

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                          • #28
                            I've always thought the USC Cheerleaders were the sexiest. According to the standard, they are dressed very moderately.


                            When poet puts pen to paper imagination breathes life, finding hearth and home.
                            -Mid Summer's Night Dream

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Danimal View Post
                              I don't care if my 7 y/o girl wears tank tops and sundresses now and I won't care if she wears them in 10 years as a teenager. I think people can handle seeing other peoples' shoulders.
                              Amen brother.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                                Shoulders are not sexy at any age.
                                This does nothing for you?

                                Last edited by jay santos; 05-15-2013, 11:24 AM.

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