Elizabeth Smart & Chewing Gum

[Bruiserstone]

Not true. I was Packmaster for a few months and the Primary President was over me. To be honest, I didn't like it.

Tushay!

[Indy Coug]

Great, now are we going to fight over whether we've ever actually been counseled that the Book of Mormon was written "for our day" and if so, whether they really meant the opposite of what they said?

The opposite?

[Indy Coug]

So let me see if I understand you correctly: It seems you are arguing that the real intent of the verse is to express how horrible rape is, but given the context it should not be taken to infer that "chastity" and "virtue" correspond to the meanings we normally attach to these words. Is that a fair summary?

1. I wondered if these two words had the same meaning over 180 years ago that they do now. PAC and Solon provided some valuable insight into that question. However, I don't believe we have satisfactorily arrived at any conclusions about whether 19th century and 21st century usages are sufficiently equivalent or not. Count me as undecided. Also count me as bemused why this bent people so badly out of shape when I explored this line of questioning. It would seem to me if somehow we could discover that 19th century connotations of these words were significantly different than now, it could perhaps help us remove the subsequent misconceptions that have arisen from this verse's existence.

2. I am also not convinced the choice of words in the translation necessarily captures the intent of the author. Noting that the 1828 definition of the word "virtue" has 10 entries, maybe choosing a word that was less ambiguous in its meaning would have been a better option. The Book of Mormon authors also on at least one occasion offered up a mea culpa for their weakness in writing, so maybe this is one of those instances where they just couldn't quite convey what they really were trying to say. Given how delicate and difficult a topic this is, is it really that hard to think that maybe it was just an honest mistake? Again, count me undecided.

3. Given the context of the scripture, I don't believe the broader extrapolations about virtue and chastity going on in this thread (including the several GA quotations) are necessarily correct conclusions to be drawn from what is in this particular verse.

[SoCalCoug]

btw... definition of commerce from 1828

2. Intercourse between individuals; interchange of work, business, civilities or amusements; mutual dealings in common life.
3. Familiar intercourse between the sexes.

Crap. This is really going to play havoc with any future discussions of the Commerce Clause.

[SoCalCoug]

Not true. I was Packmaster for a few months and the Primary President was over me. To be honest, I didn't like it.

Ah, you prefer being on top.

[SoCalCoug]

Whose day? 21st century America or 19th century America or 20th Century Albania?

Great, now are we going to fight over whether we've ever actually been counseled that the Book of Mormon was written "for our day" and if so, whether they really meant the opposite of what they said?

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's not a red herring. Looking only at Moroni 9:9 (because that is where my topic of interest has been in this thread), to ignore the context of verse is just ludicrous, so why is everyone doing it? There is a very unique type of injury to body and soul that comes from sexual abuse; something that makes the crime about as heinous as any crime that can possibly be committed. How does one express what it is about rape that makes it so particularly heinous? Moroni came up with an attempt.

Could he have done a better job, or could Joseph Smith come up with a better translation, or could we have done a better job as readers of seeking to properly understand Moroni's outrage in its appropriate context? Evidently so.

So let me see if I understand you correctly: It seems you are arguing that the real intent of the verse is to express how horrible rape is, but given the context it should not be taken to infer that "chastity" and "virtue" correspond to the meanings we normally attach to these words. Is that a fair summary?

[Indy Coug]

Yet another Indy red herring. NOBODY is arguing that rape is not a horrendous crime. The argument is that stating that the victims have lost their chastity and virtue is a harmful and erroneous concept. It really is that simple.

It's not a red herring. Looking only at Moroni 9:9 (because that is where my topic of interest has been in this thread), to ignore the context of verse is just ludicrous, so why is everyone doing it? There is a very unique type of injury to body and soul that comes from sexual abuse; something that makes the crime about as heinous as any crime that can possibly be committed. How does one express what it is about rape that makes it so particularly heinous? Moroni came up with an attempt.

Could he have done a better job, or could Joseph Smith come up with a better translation, or could we have done a better job as readers of seeking to properly understand Moroni's outrage in its appropriate context? Evidently so.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Sorry that you're late to the dance, but this has already been hashed out yesterday. I'm not really interested in playing along with you today just because you were elsewhere occupied.


Since Moroni 9:9 is clearly dealing with the topic of rape, let's go through a list (not exhaustive) of things people could deprive young women of and/or inflict upon them:


1. Possessions
2. Shelter
3. Food
4. Education
5. Religious/moral upbringing
6. Verbal/emotional abuse
7. Non-sexual physical abuse
8. Sexual abuse
9. Murder

Where do these items rank relative to each other on the scale of severity? We can look to our judicial system for some clues. How many of these situations can be overcome with minimal or modest effort? Based on the experiences shared in this thread and expertise of some of the CS membership, it would appear that sexual abuse is extraordinarily injurious, taking an incredible amount of effort, time, support, love, care and expert assistance to overcome.

What do you suggest the Lamanites could have done to their captive women that was worse than raping them?

Yet another Indy red herring. NOBODY is arguing that rape is not a horrendous crime. The argument is that stating that the victims have lost their chastity and virtue is a harmful and erroneous concept. It really is that simple.

[Indy Coug]

... and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

Sorry that you're late to the dance, but this has already been hashed out yesterday. I'm not really interested in playing along with you today just because you were elsewhere occupied.


Since Moroni 9:9 is clearly dealing with the topic of rape, let's go through a list (not exhaustive) of things people could deprive young women of and/or inflict upon them:


1. Possessions
2. Shelter
3. Food
4. Education
5. Religious/moral upbringing
6. Verbal/emotional abuse
7. Non-sexual physical abuse
8. Sexual abuse
9. Murder

Where do these items rank relative to each other on the scale of severity? We can look to our judicial system for some clues. How many of these situations can be overcome with minimal or modest effort? Based on the experiences shared in this thread and expertise of some of the CS membership, it would appear that sexual abuse is extraordinarily injurious, taking an incredible amount of effort, time, support, love, care and expert assistance to overcome.

What do you suggest the Lamanites could have done to their captive women that was worse than raping them?

[Moliere]

Not true. I was Packmaster for a few months and the Primary President was over me. To be honest, I didn't like it.

Technically the cub committee chair was over you, which position I've seen filled by both men and women....but mostly men.

[Mormon Red Death]

I'm using "ours" as its been meant every time I've heard it. To mean our day right now.

btw... Moroni 9:9 doesn't just mention virtue... it specifically says Chastity. Did chastity mean something different in 1828 then it does now?



1828 definition of Chastity:

btw... definition of commerce from 1828

2. Intercourse between individuals; interchange of work, business, civilities or amusements; mutual dealings in common life.
3. Familiar intercourse between the sexes.

[Mormon Red Death]

You have asked this question in response to my comments about Moroni 9:9. If you aren't talking about Moroni 9:9, but all of the other quotes that have been kicked around in this thread, I'm not interested in those discussions and I have not been participating in them.

The 1828 Webster dictionary cited yesterday has 10 different definitions for "virtue". While I'm not a dictionary geek, I can't recall seeing a word with more definitions than 10 before.

So by "ours" you mean 21st century America? It would be interesting to find out if Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon to more closely mirror 21st century English (and its use of "virtue") rather than his own time. It would be even more interesting to see what word Moroni used in whatever language 1400 years before that in order to help facilitate the translation into the correct 21st century English counterpart. It would be even more interesting to see what other languages the Book of Mormon has been translated into and what words are used and what nuances arise from their word choice.

I'm using "ours" as its been meant every time I've heard it. To mean our day right now.

btw... Moroni 9:9 doesn't just mention virtue... it specifically says Chastity. Did chastity mean something different in 1828 then it does now?

9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

1828 definition of Chastity:

1. Purity of the body; freedom from all unlawful commerce of sexes. Before marriage, purity from all commerce of sexes; after marriage, fidelity to the marriage bed.

[The Fourth Nephite]

Come on Indy, you know what I mean. Yes, there are women in leadership positions and on boards within the church, but there is no woman put in position over man in the church. For pete's sake, we finally let a woman pray in general conference for the first time. In the end when decisions are made you have 15 men in that room.

Not true. I was Packmaster for a few months and the Primary President was over me. To be honest, I didn't like it.

[Indy Coug]

Ours

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

You have asked this question in response to my comments about Moroni 9:9. If you aren't talking about Moroni 9:9, but all of the other quotes that have been kicked around in this thread, I'm not interested in those discussions and I have not been participating in them.

The 1828 Webster dictionary cited yesterday has 10 different definitions for "virtue". While I'm not a dictionary geek, I can't recall seeing a word with more definitions than 10 before.

So by "ours" you mean 21st century America? It would be interesting to find out if Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon to more closely mirror 21st century English (and its use of "virtue") rather than his own time. It would be even more interesting to see what word Moroni used in whatever language 1400 years before that in order to help facilitate the translation into the correct 21st century English counterpart. It would be even more interesting to see what other languages the Book of Mormon has been translated into and what words are used and what nuances arise from their word choice.