Elizabeth Smart & Chewing Gum

[Jeff Lebowski]

The story, says this writer, is a stretch. The chewing gum analogy apparently came from a schoolteacher, not church.

I didn't follow what was reported in the national press very closely, but I don't get why the "schoolteacher, not church" issue makes any difference. Would anyone argue that this kind of object lessons isn't prevalent the church? And given that she grew up in SLC, is there any doubt that the schoolteacher was simply repeating something she most likely picked up from the predominant LDS culture?

I am wondering under what kind of circumstances a school teacher would give such an object lesson anyway. Weird.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think you guys should ask the women in your lives whether they received a similar object lesson. Plus, it's much bigger than a single object lesson. Virtue (virginity) being tied to a women's worth is a larger thread. See Moroni 9:9, for example.

Ha. You obviously didn't even skim the thread. We beat that topic to death.

[Donuthole]

Ha. You obviously didn't even skim the thread. We beat that topic to death.

Seriously. I haven't seen such poor drive-by posting since the last time SuperGabers posted here.

[Mrs. Funk]

For FHE tomorrow night we're watching the Elizabeth Smart speech, then doing the gold coin object lesson. I'll report back.

Love the gold coin lesson! I hope it goes great.

[Moliere]

Love the golf coin lesson! I hope it goes great.

Now I'm interested...

[Eddie]

I finally got around to watching the video of Elizabeth Smart speaking. Amazing and very articulate woman. I'm glad to see how she is doing so well and how well she responded to a pretty rough 9 month period of time. I'll never forget where I was when the news broke that she had been found.

But watching her video has kind of thrown a wrench in this whole thread/discussion for me.

Let me begin by saying that I do believe care needs to be used in discussing abstinence, sexual purity, whatever you want to call it. I kind of see it as a dichotomy that I'm not sure what to do with. Elizabeth said she felt like her soul had been crushed when she was raped. I am sad she went through that pain. But I would never want to teach my children that sex is meaningless as you would have to make it in order for a rape to be a ho-hum emotionally painless experience.

As everyone here has agreed - it should be taught that rape does not make someone unworthy or unclean...it does not make them a sinner. But if sex isn't meaningless - then there is always going to be some level of crushing loss associated with rape. As unfortunate as that is, I prefer it to the alternative. And I think that will exist - along with feelings of being unclean or unworthy - to some degree regardless of how it is addressed.

All of that aside - I'm kind of irritated that the headline of the article linked in the first posting of this thread says that the reason Elizabeth Smart didn't try to escape was due to her Mormon teachings on sex and morality.

Listening to the speech - she makes it very clear (around the 5:20 mark) that the reason she didn't run was because she was afraid. She had been told daily that if she ran they would kill her, and if they couldn't kill her they would kill her family. She was afraid of what would happen to her or her family - and that is why she didn't run.

Now - she does talk about feeling worthless. She tells the gum story that has been referenced and is ridiculous. But she also says that she knew that no matter what had happened her parents loved her. (so she must not have believed that would've preferred she return in a coffin rather than as a rape victim.) She also makes a point of stating that she wishes she had had permission to fight back (so she obviously wasn't indoctrinated with ideas that it would be better to fight and die than to be a rape victim).

Elizabeth even says that she can see why someone feeling like that wouldn't run - and goes so far as to say that it isn't fair to ask victims why they didn't run.

But the reality is that Mormon teachings on morality and sex had very little to do with the reason she didn't run. (In fact - at one point she talks about being willing to do ANYTHING necessary to survive and escape. Alluding to breaking whatever church rules/values/morals she might have to.)

Again - I don't disagree with the idea that we need to be careful as to how these things are discussed and taught. But Elizabeth Smart is certainly NOT the poster child for why.

[All-American]

I finally got around to watching the video of Elizabeth Smart speaking. Amazing and very articulate woman. I'm glad to see how she is doing so well and how well she responded to a pretty rough 9 month period of time. I'll never forget where I was when the news broke that she had been found.

But watching her video has kind of thrown a wrench in this whole thread/discussion for me.

Let me begin by saying that I do believe care needs to be used in discussing abstinence, sexual purity, whatever you want to call it. I kind of see it as a dichotomy that I'm not sure what to do with. Elizabeth said she felt like her soul had been crushed when she was raped. I am sad she went through that pain. But I would never want to teach my children that sex is meaningless as you would have to make it in order for a rape to be a ho-hum emotionally painless experience.

As everyone here has agreed - it should be taught that rape does not make someone unworthy or unclean...it does not make them a sinner. But if sex isn't meaningless - then there is always going to be some level of crushing loss associated with rape. As unfortunate as that is, I prefer it to the alternative. And I think that will exist - along with feelings of being unclean or unworthy - to some degree regardless of how it is addressed.

All of that aside - I'm kind of irritated that the headline of the article linked in the first posting of this thread says that the reason Elizabeth Smart didn't try to escape was due to her Mormon teachings on sex and morality.

Listening to the speech - she makes it very clear (around the 5:20 mark) that the reason she didn't run was because she was afraid. She had been told daily that if she ran they would kill her, and if they couldn't kill her they would kill her family. She was afraid of what would happen to her or her family - and that is why she didn't run.

Now - she does talk about feeling worthless. She tells the gum story that has been referenced and is ridiculous. But she also says that she knew that no matter what had happened her parents loved her. (so she must not have believed that would've preferred she return in a coffin rather than as a rape victim.) She also makes a point of stating that she wishes she had had permission to fight back (so she obviously wasn't indoctrinated with ideas that it would be better to fight and die than to be a rape victim).

Elizabeth even says that she can see why someone feeling like that wouldn't run - and goes so far as to say that it isn't fair to ask victims why they didn't run.

But the reality is that Mormon teachings on morality and sex had very little to do with the reason she didn't run. (In fact - at one point she talks about being willing to do ANYTHING necessary to survive and escape. Alluding to breaking whatever church rules/values/morals she might have to.)

Again - I don't disagree with the idea that we need to be careful as to how these things are discussed and taught. But Elizabeth Smart is certainly NOT the poster child for why.

Exactly right.

[SoCalCoug]

Is it not possible for a report like that to spur discussion on an issue even if it's not directly analogous or naturally follows from it? Look at the original post again - it was a criticism of the chewed gum analogy (not a discussion of what impact that may have had on Elizabeth Smart), followed by, "And while I'm on the subject, what the heck is Moroni's problem?" Does that fact that the chewed gum analogy doesn't seem to have had a huge impact on Elizabeth Smart really matter to the discussion as framed by the original post?

I think the issue The Fourth Nephite brought up is worthy of discussion. I just don't understand the need to put limits on it based on what Elizabeth Smart said or didn't say - that wasn't really the issue here.

[Eddie]

Is it not possible for a report like that to spur discussion on an issue even if it's not directly analogous or naturally follows from it? Look at the original post again - it was a criticism of the chewed gum analogy (not a discussion of what impact that may have had on Elizabeth Smart), followed by, "And while I'm on the subject, what the heck is Moroni's problem?" Does that fact that the chewed gum analogy doesn't seem to have had a huge impact on Elizabeth Smart really matter to the discussion as framed by the original post?

I think the issue The Fourth Nephite brought up is worthy of discussion. I just don't understand the need to put limits on it based on what Elizabeth Smart said or didn't say - that wasn't really the issue here.

I don't have a problem with something like that spurring discussion. I just feel like the discussion is based on half-truths and half of the information.

And I think that just as one of the points being made was that religious teachings can make an already traumatic experience even more traumatic - it would be nice if the article would've also pointed out what Elizabeth's parents did right to prepare her for the experience. (Man, that's a weird way of putting it.)

The fact that she KNEW that her parents loved her no matter what had happened to her seems to have played a huge role in her ability to endure what she went through until her escape. It seems like a discussion here about what parents can do to make sure their children know how much they are loved regardless of what happens to them would be at least as relevant.

I'm not saying that this isn't a worthy topic. I'm saying that the original article that led to the thread is wanting.

[Mrs. Funk]

Now I'm interested...

Smartphone typo. Baby funk kept me up until 2:30 and woke me up at 6:30. Just sayin'.

[LA Ute]

Even though, as Eddie notes, this thread was a little misbegotten, it did help me see that we need to talk a lot more about gold coins and never about chewed gum or licked cupcakes. Never.

[SoCalCoug]

I had never heard the gold coin analogy before this - over the weekend, I ran across it (researching for a lesson) and read it. That's what I want my kids to be taught. I love the gold coin analogy. I hate the chewed gum, licked cupcakes, rusty nail, etc. analogies.

[myboynoah]

I had never heard the gold coin analogy before this - over the weekend, I ran across it (researching for a lesson) and read it. That's what I want my kids to be taught. I love the gold coin analogy. I hate the chewed gum, licked cupcakes, rusty nail, etc. analogies.

Rusty nail?!?!? Sounds painful.

[SoCalCoug]

Rusty nail?!?!? Sounds painful.

Yeah, it's one I heard at a youth conference or something like that - If you pound a rusty nail into a piece of wood, you can remove it, but it still leaves a dirty hole.

No, I'm not making this up.

[smokymountainrain]

Yeah, it's one I heard at a youth conference or something like that - If you pound a rusty nail into a piece of wood, you can remove it, but it still leaves a dirty hole.

No, I'm not making this up.