the mormon reformation

[SoonerCoug]

I could come up with a much better list.

[All-American]

I could come up with a much better list.

Prove it.

[Mrs. Funk]

Many of the points lack nuance and various links to Wikipedia in "support" don't go great lengths to inspire confidence in the scholarship put into the document. I think we need more transparency as much as anyone but the wording on this is clearly too inflammatory to be intended as a reformation.

Sometimes I think that if the Mormon church took a page from Catholicism and just said, "Look, some weird shit happened in our past. Times change" that people wouldn't be as horrified when they find out about stuff like this. Pretending there aren't serious inconsistencies and confusing things about Mormonism's inception and history is the digital age equivalent of stuffing finger's in one's ears and screaming, "Lalalalal I can't hear you!!"

[CardiacCoug]

I like the criticism of the City Creek billboards showing normal non-LDS people out to eat: (backless dresses and wine glasses).

If the billboards showed people dressed modestly and drinking soda people could accuse the Church and City Creek of pro-LDS propaganda, no?

[Moliere]

This is a great list and it's all hyperlinked. I'm actually glad someone has consolidated these into one giant list, which will make quickly researching this stuff much easier. The idea is stupid, but the list is great!

I could come up with a much better list.

This is like when someone says they could write a book like the BoM. It just ain't gonna happen.

[myboynoah]

This is like when someone says they could write a book like the BoM. It just ain't gonna happen.

Please. Sooner's list would kick that list's ass.

[Paperback Writer]

Sometimes I think that if the Mormon church took a page from Catholicism and just said, "Look, some weird shit happened in our past. Times change" that people wouldn't be as horrified when they find out about stuff like this.

While I agree, that approach appears to conflict with the LDS narrative of the "Great Apostasy". The one were "some weird shit happened" in Catholicism because they changed doctrine and ordinances because the priesthood was taken away and "the church" had no one to receive revelation. That's leaves Mormonism with the narrative that they had the priesthood and a prophet to receive revelation and still "some weird shit happened." The only place to go from there is to question the infallibility of at least early Mormon leaders and perhaps later ones. If JS was wrong about polygamy, what else could he have gotten wrong. If the COB is wrong about prop 8 and a narrow interpretation of the WofW what else are they getting wrong? IMO, neither the COB nor the majority of LDS are ready for that.

[Indy Coug]

LOL. Catholicism had a lot more going on than merely some "weird shit" that happened in their past.

[Jeff Lebowski]

LOL. Catholicism had a lot more going on than merely some "weird shit" that happened in their past.

You have to admit, indulgences would be quite handy in a lot of circumstances.

[Moliere]

While I agree, that approach appears to conflict with the LDS narrative of the "Great Apostasy". The one were "some weird shit happened" in Catholicism because they changed doctrine and ordinances because the priesthood was taken away and "the church" had no one to receive revelation. That's leaves Mormonism with the narrative that they had the priesthood and a prophet to receive revelation and still "some weird shit happened." The only place to go from there is to question the infallibility of at least early Mormon leaders and perhaps later ones. If JS was wrong about polygamy, what else could he have gotten wrong. If the COB is wrong about prop 8 and a narrow interpretation of the WofW what else are they getting wrong? IMO, neither the COB nor the majority of LDS are ready for that.

The funny thing about the comparison to Catholicism is that the same argument for the apostasy that was so persuasive to me as a missionary was that Catholicism (or its predecessors) changed ordinances and lost the PH is what caused my initial doubts for Mormonism. Once I found out Mormonism changed ordinances as well (and I lived through one of the major changes) Mormonism started to fall apart for me. My only saving grace was to no longer believe Catholicism was not a true church, which required me to believe the orthodox Mormon interpretation of the apostasy was incorrect.

Our history has a lot more in common with Catholicism and the Great Apostasy than most are willing to admit.

[Indy Coug]

You have to admit, indulgences would be quite handy in a lot of circumstances.

FOS could just quietly go away.

[Indy Coug]

The funny thing about the comparison to Catholicism is that the same argument for the apostasy that was so persuasive to me as a missionary was that Catholicism (or its predecessors) changed ordinances and lost the PH is what caused my initial doubts for Mormonism. Once I found out Mormonism changed ordinances as well (and I lived through one of the major changes) Mormonism started to fall apart for me. My only saving grace was to no longer believe Catholicism was not a true church, which required me to believe the orthodox Mormon interpretation of the apostasy was incorrect.

Our history has a lot more in common with Catholicism and the Great Apostasy than most are willing to admit.

Maybe it's time for you to do some deeper digging into the Great Apostasy rather than the superficial understanding you seem to currently have.

[Moliere]

Maybe it's time for you to do some deeper digging into the Great Apostasy rather than the superficial understanding you seem to currently have.

Are you telling me this book doesn't contain the full extent of the apostasy?

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Great-Apostasy-James-Edward-Talmage/dp/145656921X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1360859698&sr=8-3&keywords=great+apostasy"]The Great Apostasy: James Edward Talmage: 9781456569211: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z5iu8XSoL.@@AMEPARAM@@41Z5iu8XSoL[/ame]

[jay santos]

The funny thing about the comparison to Catholicism is that the same argument for the apostasy that was so persuasive to me as a missionary was that Catholicism (or its predecessors) changed ordinances and lost the PH is what caused my initial doubts for Mormonism. Once I found out Mormonism changed ordinances as well (and I lived through one of the major changes) Mormonism started to fall apart for me. My only saving grace was to no longer believe Catholicism was not a true church, which required me to believe the orthodox Mormon interpretation of the apostasy was incorrect.

Our history has a lot more in common with Catholicism and the Great Apostasy than most are willing to admit.

I think the logic would be that the changing of ordinance (even baptism) is not wrong, as long as its done by a valid prophet with valid priesthood receiving revelation.

We probably have used the wrong logic in the past, ie pointing to what the Catholic church did as being evidence that it had strayed. When the Mormon church has done very similar types of things.

[Portland Ute]

Prove it.