Religion may not survive the internet

[SeattleUte]

Talk about an apostate. Paul himself was an apostate.

[Topper]

Well the one thing that is pretty clear from Paul's writings is that there was definitely some miscommunication and/or freelancing by some of the various congregations that had to be corrected.

Remember the words of Solon though, some of what you are reading is not from Paul. Many of the epistles were forgeries.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Well the one thing that is pretty clear from Paul's writings is that there was definitely some miscommunication and/or freelancing by some of the various congregations that had to be corrected.

Was Paul trying to correct some trouble-makers that had strayed from centralized authority or was he simply competing with other Christian sects in the cities in question?

We like to think that things started out with centralized control and tight organization and then descended into chaos, culminating in the ultimate apostasy with Constantine. But the historical record seems to indicate the opposite. Christianity was all over the map with numerous sects pushing different sets of beliefs and styles of worship. Constantine ended up consolidating the religion and normalizing the core set of beliefs and practices.

[Solon]

Talk about an apostate. Paul himself was an apostate.

LOL. Nice point.
Also, Paul was the original Christian. The authors of Matthew, Mark, and especially John were the apostates. They came a generation after Paul.

Was Paul trying to correct some trouble-makers that had strayed from centralized authority or was he simply competing with other Christian sects in the cities in question?

We like to think that things started out with centralized control and tight organization and then descended into chaos, culminating in the ultimate apostasy with Constantine. But the historical record seems to indicate the opposite. Christianity was all over the map with numerous sects pushing different sets of beliefs and styles of worship. Constantine ended up consolidating the religion and normalizing the core set of beliefs and practices.

Josiah - Constantine - Harold B. Lee.
Great Correlators all.

The biggest difference is that - of these three - only Lee claimed a prophetic calling (although Constantine considered himself the "13th apostle").

[Pelado]

Was Paul trying to correct some trouble-makers that had strayed from centralized authority or was he simply competing with other Christian sects in the cities in question?

We like to think that things started out with centralized control and tight organization and then descended into chaos, culminating in the ultimate apostasy with Constantine. But the historical record seems to indicate the opposite. Christianity was all over the map with numerous sects pushing different sets of beliefs and styles of worship. Constantine ended up consolidating the religion and normalizing the core set of beliefs and practices.

There's a lot we don't know about early Christianity. It would be nice if we could have followed Jesus' Twitter feed.

[Moliere]

There's a lot we don't know about early Christianity. It would be nice if we could have followed Jesus' Twitter feed.

I follow "The Tweet of God" but I'm pretty sure it's not really God that is posting....

[Blueintheface]

I follow "The Tweet of God" but I'm pretty sure it's not really God that is posting....

For it is by twitter you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

[Pelado]

For it is by twitter you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

Ephesians may have been from a troll account.

[SeattleUte]

Was Paul trying to correct some trouble-makers that had strayed from centralized authority or was he simply competing with other Christian sects in the cities in question?

We like to think that things started out with centralized control and tight organization and then descended into chaos, culminating in the ultimate apostasy with Constantine. But the historical record seems to indicate the opposite. Christianity was all over the map with numerous sects pushing different sets of beliefs and styles of worship. Constantine ended up consolidating the religion and normalizing the core set of beliefs and practices.

Incipient Christianity was a revolution as much as the American, French or Bolshevik revolutions were such. It was part and parcel of the uprising against the Romans and their local puppet ironmen that led the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. James was Trotsky, Paul was Lenin, etc. (I am making this comparison without moral judgment; I hate the early Bolsheviks and don't hate Paul. Christianity was a revolution of ideas, not guns and bombs, which was what made it remarkable.) But like Bolshevism it became the problem for lovers of liberty and human rights in the same way that Roman dicatatorship was a problem.

There is no doubt about this. Have you read Reza Aslan's ZEALOT? It's based on mainstream established secondary sources, though ZEALOT was controversial with nut jobs.

But don't expect any comtemporary religious authority structure to highlight Christianity's revolutionary origins.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Incipient Christianity was a revolution as much as the American, French or Bolshevik revolutions were such. It was part and parcel of the uprising against the Romans and their local puppet ironmen that led the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. James was Trotsky, Paul was Lenin, etc. But like Bolshevism it became the problem for lovers of liberty and human rights in the same way that Roman dicatatorship was a problem.

But don't expect any comtemporary religious authority structure to highlight Christianity's revolutionary origins.

I finally got around to reading about the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in detail recently. Holy cow, talk about a wipeout.

[SeattleUte]

I finally got around to reading about the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in detail recently. Holy cow, talk about a wipeout.

But it led not only to Christianity but also Rabinical Judaism. God works in mysterious ways, apparently.

[All-American]

Well, it's very unlikely that Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians anyway (the famous "falling away" scripture is at 2.3), so he's off the hook as far as I'm concerned.

"Very unlikely" probably overstates the case. Some would argue that there's more evidence that 2 Thessalonians is authentic than 1 Thessalonians. At the very least, of the legitimate candidates for pseudepigraphy, 2 Thessalonians is the weakest.

[All-American]

My use of the word apostasy is a product of the brainwashing I received while serving a mission, and was misused in attempting to communicate my thoughts on the "falling away" from the truth prior to the events of the Nicene Creed. My calling the saints of that time "good people" supports the direction I was going by saying it was a communication problem not a rebellious act. In the future I will be more careful when choosing my words, and I'm sure the hobbyist wordsmiths will correct me in the future should the occasion arise. I thank them in advance.

I understood the meaning you intended. I still disagree.

[Topper]

"Very unlikely" probably overstates the case. Some would argue that there's more evidence that 2 Thessalonians is authentic than 1 Thessalonians. At the very least, of the legitimate candidates for pseudepigraphy, 2 Thessalonians is the weakest.

I thought both were considered pseydepigraphical.

[All-American]

I thought both were considered pseydepigraphical.

Dig deep enough, and you'll find somebody who will think they're all pseudepigraphs. But the most commonly challenged ones are Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, both Timothys, and Titus. Of those six, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are the least-challenged.

EDIT: I'm not including Hebrews in that list, by the way, because I don't even know that it qualifies as a pseudepigraph.