Big hole in evolutionary biology?

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  • SeattleUte
    Faith crisis consultant
    • Nov 2008
    • 20837

    #1

    Big hole in evolutionary biology?

    I read the linked article, by Harvard zoologist Richard C. Lewontin, with interest:

    When I was a student I was enjoined to reject the "Cleopatra's Nose" theory of history, so called after Pascal's remark in the Pensées : "Cleopatra's


    The part that stands out is the following admission:

    In referring to the theory of evolution [Jerry Coyne author of Why Evolution Is True] makes it clear that we do not mean the weak sense of "theory," an ingenious tentative mental construct that might or might not be objectively true, but the strong sense of a coherent set of true assertions about physical reality. In this he is entirely successful.

    Where he is less successful, as all other commentators have been, is in his insistence that the evidence for natural selection as the driving force of evolution is of the same inferential strength as the evidence that evolution has occurred. So, for example, he gives the game away by writing that when we examine a sequence of changes in the fossil record, we can "determine whether the sequences of changes at least conform to a step-by-step adaptive process. And in every case, we can find at least a feasible Darwinian explanation."

    But to say that some example is not falsification of a theory because we can always "find" (invent) a feasible explanation says more about the flexibility of the theory and the ingenuity of its supporters than it says about physical nature. Indeed in his later discussion of theories of behavioral evolution he becomes appropriately skeptical when he writes that "imaginative reconstructions of how things might have evolved are not science; they are stories." [This observation] allows evolutionary "theory" to fall back into the category of being reasonable but not an incontrovertible material fact.

    There is, of course, nothing that Coyne can do about the situation. There are different modes of "knowing," and we "know" that evolution has, in fact, occurred in a stronger sense than we "know" that some sequence of evolutionary change has been the result of natural selection. . . .
    So speciation is an incontrovertible fact, but natural selection really is just a theory (in the weak sense of theory). Religious zealots should take note, because it's the natural selection part of evolution that is truly at war with Judeo-Christian dogma, not the speciation part. Of course, this of itself does nothing to empirically "prove" any religious tradition true.

    NOTE: I invite especially Creekser to comment on this because he knows a lot more about the subject than I do.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift
  • CardiacCoug
    вот так штука
    • Nov 2008
    • 11013

    #2
    I don't see the hole, honestly. Sure, natural selection may technically be a theory, but it's a theory with enormous explanatory power and without any rival theories that make any sense.

    Remind me, please -- How is evolution by natural selection "at war" with Judeo-Christian dogma? Outside of fundamentalists I don't think very many religious people reject the idea of evolution.

    Comment

    • SeattleUte
      Faith crisis consultant
      • Nov 2008
      • 20837

      #3
      Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
      Remind me, please -- How is evolution by natural selection "at war" with Judeo-Christian dogma? Outside of fundamentalists I don't think very many religious people reject the idea of evolution.
      The randomness of natural selection seems incompatible with the fundamental Judeo-Christian outlook that all is proceeding per God's plan. Natural selection does not even suppose that we were destined to look in any way like we do; humans could have evolved quite differently. While evolution seems in the macro to progress to more complex life forms, there is a thread of randomness. Natural selection is random, violent, and pitiless. Its edifice is built on infinite corpses of beings that lived short brutish lives.
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

      Comment

      • SeattleUte
        Faith crisis consultant
        • Nov 2008
        • 20837

        #4
        Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
        I don't see the hole, honestly. Sure, natural selection may technically be a theory, but it's a theory with enormous explanatory power and without any rival theories that make any sense.
        So you disagree with the Harvard zoology professor's observation in the linked article. Yes or no? (Notice I am always careful to cite; for example to Pelagius or Einstein.)
        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

        --Jonathan Swift

        Comment

        • Fiyero
          Banned
          • Nov 2008
          • 5266

          #5
          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          humans could have evolved quite differently.
          Thank you for that profound analysis. I for one am quite intrigued by your latest find of someone else's "could."

          Comment

          • beefytee
            Board eye candy
            • Mar 2009
            • 7542

            #6
            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
            The randomness of natural selection seems incompatible with the fundamental Judeo-Christian outlook that all is proceeding per God's plan. Natural selection does not even suppose that we were destined to look in any way like we do; humans could have evolved quite differently. While evolution seems in the macro to progress to more complex life forms, there is a thread of randomness. Natural selection is random, violent, and pitiless. Its edifice is built on infinite corpses of beings that lived short brutish lives.
            No it's not in conflict because natural selection is not random:




            Sounds more like eternal progression to me.

            I don't see how this conflicts with God's plan anymore than random things happening in our life conflicts with it. According to believers, it is just all part of the plan, we just don't understand or know it all and label it as random.

            Comment

            • SeattleUte
              Faith crisis consultant
              • Nov 2008
              • 20837

              #7
              Originally posted by beefytee View Post
              No it's not in conflict because natural selection is not random:




              Sounds more like eternal progression to me.

              I don't see how this conflicts with God's plan anymore than random things happening in our life conflicts with it. According to believers, it is just all part of the plan, we just don't understand or know it all and label it as random.
              Could be reincarnation. The mutation process is completely random, as the article said. I assume with mutations the possiblities for variance are as endless as for snowflakes. The survival part is also random within certain tolerances.
              When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

              --Jonathan Swift

              Comment

              • woot
                Resident Science Cop
                • Nov 2008
                • 5531

                #8
                This doesn't seem to be anything new. The relative importance of the various evolutionary mechanisms (natural selection, drift, mutation, gene flow) have been debated since Darwin and it won't die down anytime soon.

                However, natural selection is self-evident in its simplicity. Of course those with phenotypes more conducive to survival and reproduction are going to keep more of their genes in the pool.

                It's definitely not "just a theory" at all. It isn't any more controversial than the idea that farmers aren't wasting their time by choosing to breed the best individuals.

                Also, the fact that Lewontin is a professor at Harvard shouldn't enter into this conversation. That's too similar to an appeal to authority. The book that he's reviewing in the piece you linked is by Jerry Coyne, one of his graduate students at Harvard and who has since become at least as big of a name as his advisor. Lots of really smart people disagree about this stuff, but Lewontin seems to be nitpicking in an otherwise positive review.

                Comment

                • SeattleUte
                  Faith crisis consultant
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 20837

                  #9
                  Someone add a question mark at the end of the title to this thread. Thanks.
                  When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                  --Jonathan Swift

                  Comment

                  • SeattleUte
                    Faith crisis consultant
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 20837

                    #10
                    Originally posted by woot View Post
                    This doesn't seem to be anything new. The relative importance of the various evolutionary mechanisms (natural selection, drift, mutation, gene flow) have been debated since Darwin and it won't die down anytime soon.

                    However, natural selection is self-evident in its simplicity. Of course those with phenotypes more conducive to survival and reproduction are going to keep more of their genes in the pool.

                    It's definitely not "just a theory" at all. It isn't any more controversial than the idea that farmers aren't wasting their time by choosing to breed the best individuals.

                    Also, the fact that Lewontin is a professor at Harvard shouldn't enter into this conversation. That's too similar to an appeal to authority. The book that he's reviewing in the piece you linked is by Jerry Coyne, one of his graduate students at Harvard and who has since become at least as big of a name as his advisor. Lots of really smart people disagree about this stuff, but Lewontin seems to be nitpicking in an otherwise positive review.
                    What I find interesting and a little unsettling is that, as Lewontin states, "knowledge" of natural selection is nowhere near the same plane as our knowledge of evolution. Yet I see creeping dogmatism in scientists' writings about the subject. It's not common to see a scientist make the distinction made by Lewontin (in a back handed way he compliments Coyne for grudgingly making it).

                    Your post is an example. No one is saying natural selection doesn't occur. Yes, nature selects the fittest to survive to procreate just as farmers select the best attributes to breed and propagate. But that's not enough to make a mechanism for speciation without more explanation. There are many unanswered questions. For example, as Lewontin states,

                    Indeed for environmental changes that have their effect after the age of reproduction, it is not clear that natural selection can operate at all.
                    Indeed. I don't expect a smoking gun. On the contrary, I just want to scientists act like scientists, not like clerics.
                    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                    --Jonathan Swift

                    Comment

                    • CardiacCoug
                      вот так штука
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 11013

                      #11
                      Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                      What I find interesting and a little unsettling is that, as Lewontin states, "knowledge" of natural selection is nowhere near the same plane as our knowledge of evolution. Yet I see creeping dogmatism in scientists' writings about the subject. It's not common to see a scientist make the distinction made by Lewontin (in a back handed way he compliments Coyne for grudgingly making it).
                      I don't get where you're going with this. Natural selection as a mechanism for evolution is self-evident. The more successfully an organism reproduces, the more its genetic material persists through subsequent generations. Who could argue with that statement?

                      Speculation about the exact role of natural selection in specific cases should be presented by scientists as speculation rather than as fact. If that's what the Harvard guys is saying, then I agree with that obvious statement. But the general contribution of natural selection to evolution seems too obvious and self-evident to really need to be "proven."

                      Comment

                      • woot
                        Resident Science Cop
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 5531

                        #12
                        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                        What I find interesting and a little unsettling is that, as Lewontin states, "knowledge" of natural selection is nowhere near the same plane as our knowledge of evolution. Yet I see creeping dogmatism in scientists' writings about the subject. It's not common to see a scientist make the distinction made by Lewontin (in a back handed way he compliments Coyne for grudgingly making it).

                        Your post is an example. No one is saying natural selection doesn't occur. Yes, nature selects the fittest to survive to procreate just as farmers select the best attributes to breed and propagate. But that's not enough to make a mechanism for speciation without more explanation. There are many unanswered questions. For example, as Lewontin states,



                        Indeed. I don't expect a smoking gun. On the contrary, I just want to scientists act like scientists, not like clerics.
                        That quote seems a bit silly, as it's obvious that natural selection has at least significantly reduced ability to filter out bad genes that are expressed only after reproductive age, and no one would dispute that. It's also a fact that >99% of all individuals never reach a post-reproductive period. Human females are unique in their ability to long outlive their reproductive years (with the possible exception of a single whale species). Since humans are basically unique in this, it becomes a question only dealt with by anthropologists and, to a lesser extent, medical researchers, and there is a large body of literature discussing the possibility of selection acting beyond the reproductive years.

                        This seems like much ado about nothing. Is your point simply that scientists sometimes speak with too much confidence? Replace "scientists" with "all people." This isn't a novel or interesting observation.

                        Comment

                        • SeattleUte
                          Faith crisis consultant
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 20837

                          #13
                          Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
                          I don't get where you're going with this. Natural selection as a mechanism for evolution is self-evident. The more successfully an organism reproduces, the more its genetic material persists through subsequent generations. Who could argue with that statement?

                          Speculation about the exact role of natural selection in specific cases should be presented by scientists as speculation rather than as fact. If that's what the Harvard guys is saying, then I agree with that obvious statement. But the general contribution of natural selection to evolution seems too obvious and self-evident to really need to be "proven."
                          I think what the "Harvard guy" is saying is self-evident--natural selection as a mechanism for speciation is not self-evident.
                          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                          --Jonathan Swift

                          Comment

                          • SeattleUte
                            Faith crisis consultant
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 20837

                            #14
                            Originally posted by woot View Post
                            That quote seems a bit silly, as it's obvious that natural selection has at least significantly reduced ability to filter out bad genes that are expressed only after reproductive age, and no one would dispute that. It's also a fact that >99% of all individuals never reach a post-reproductive period. Human females are unique in their ability to long outlive their reproductive years (with the possible exception of a single whale species). Since humans are basically unique in this, it becomes a question only dealt with by anthropologists and, to a lesser extent, medical researchers, and there is a large body of literature discussing the possibility of selection acting beyond the reproductive years.

                            This seems like much ado about nothing. Is your point simply that scientists sometimes speak with too much confidence? Replace "scientists" with "all people." This isn't a novel or interesting observation.
                            I'm glad you think he's "silly." Did you know Coyne dedicated his book to Lewontin? As you see, he's no ordinary "Harvard guy."



                            I have no agenda here other than skepticism.
                            Last edited by SeattleUte; 05-11-2009, 08:07 PM.
                            When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                            --Jonathan Swift

                            Comment

                            • woot
                              Resident Science Cop
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 5531

                              #15
                              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                              I'm glad you think he's "silly." Did you know Coyne dedicated his book to Lewontin? As you see, he's no ordinary "Harvard guy."



                              I have no agenda here other than skepticism.
                              I assure you I'm aware of who Lewontin is. Please read more carefully. I found the quote to be silly, not the man who said it.

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