Sex before marriage equals happiness

[kccougar]

We all see this based on our anecdotal experience, but looking back on the last 10 bishops I've had here where I live (and I've known them all quite well) not one of them would have given such advice. Any fool can see that in a marriage of a young healthy couple, a total absence of sexual relations is a serious indication of other problems, and of a troubled marriage. Every one of those 10 bishops would have sent the couple for counseling. So would all 3 of the SPs I've had. If Topper's bishop really told his ex that a 5-year hiatus was OK, then the bishop was...tragically mistaken. (I experimented with harsher words. They all would have fit, but I try not to call men fools.)

Women (and men) hear what they want to hear. I'm not going to make judgements of this bishop or certainly not all church bishops based on what one guy says his wife understood from a talk with her bishop.

[DU Ute]

Women (and men) hear what they want to hear. I'm not going to make judgements of this bishop or certainly not all church bishops based on what one guy says his wife understood from a talk with her bishop.

I don't think anyone is making a judgment of all church bishops.

[Non Sequitur]

Well, I doubt he "greenlighted" things as they were indefinitely, but I don't doubt he told her not to have sex if she didn't want to--perfectly legitimate advice.

But say she never comes around on this. Despite having every indication that she would like sex, she discovers that she doesn't and that she just can't get over the ickiness factor of it? What then? Don't you think there's a little value in navigating some of this beforehand (hence the author's advice)? Instead, Elder Scott advises us to "not stimulate those feelings" (or whatever the words were), which seems like a recipe for disaster.

Of course, this isn't really a problem for guys, nearly every one of whom knows pretty closely what he's in for. Hmm....

I've known a couple of women who didn't like sex and both of them had had bad experiences when they were young. One had been raped as a teenager and the other had been molested as a child. I have a hard time believing LDS women are frigid because of the LDS culture. From what I've observed, LDS women are every bit as enthusiastic about sex as non-LDS women. If a woman is sexually dysfunctional, I'm more inclined to believe it has more to do with past experiences than it does with LDS teachings.

[kccougar]

I've known a couple of women who didn't like sex and both of them had had bad experiences when they were young. One had been raped as a teenager and the other had been molested as a child. I have a hard time believing LDS women are frigid because of the LDS culture. From what I've observed, LDS women are every bit as enthusiastic about sex as non-LDS women. If a woman is sexually dysfunctional, I'm more inclined to believe it has more to do with past experiences than it does with LDS teachings.

Given the vast majority of LDS women raised the same way that seem to have no problems with sex, I tend to agree that the minority have those issues for reasons other than their LDS upbringing.

[Sullyute]

I'm glad my wife isn't uptight like her mom about many things, but she is having a bit of a hard time with it because she feels like she can't talk with her mom or even her twin sister about most stuff because they have become so fanatical. My wife is what I'd classify as a moderate Republican and is a believing, active member of the church, but her family is so ultra conservative and orthodox she feels like she can't even mention religion or politics. Everything is so black and white, right or wrong with no room for discussion and anyone who disagrees is bad and has evil intent. It is sad that it has become so bad that my wife no longer feels close to her family.

My wife is going thru the same thing with her family right now. Just this weekend my MIL made my wife cry over it. It nuts.

[Solon]

Beyond the repression and disfunction, there's the problem in Mormonism that sincerity does not undo reality.

Many Bishops are sincere, but gravely mistaken, in their counsel in any number of areas. The Church just can't help itself from over-emphasizing the follow-the-leader rhetoric and ratcheting up confirmation bias. Of course thinking adults should be discerning, but then Church teaching undercuts, discourages, and otherwise marginalizes such discernment. Rejecting a Bishop's counsel is sin to many active Mormons, and is politically incorrect from the top down.

The whole mess is coercive and unhealthy.

In the long term, Bishops, other LDS leaders, and the ultra-orthodox will lose credibility on this stuff. In the meantime, plenty of damage is being done.

I know a (LDS) teenage girl who was briefly sexually active with her boyfriend last year.

Based on LDS scriptures, she believed the severity of her sins was just less than the severity of murder, so she started cutting herself and otherwise acting crazy. Eventually, she seems to have found some relief through counseling (I learned all this from her parents).

I don't really care what the church is / is not telling married adults. Consenting adults are ultimately responsible what advice they choose to live by. Children, though, need to be protected from this kind of nonsense.

[clackamascoug]

I think that oral sex is the true mark of whether you love your spouse more than yourself. I love my wife more than a blowjob, and to have her humming Yankee Doodle Dandy for a couple of minutes of the 15 I've been granted is a huge waste of time, and a bit demeaning. It's not worth it. There are a 101 things a couple can do to develop an intimate bond, and I just don't see where oral sex is uplifting and edifying. However, I'm sure of one thing, after 28 years of marriage, it's apparent to me that my wife is yet to love me more than herself. I had to put my foot down when she wanted to move my back inverter into the bedroom from the garage.

[Non Sequitur]

I just don't see where oral sex is uplifting and edifying.

If oral is sex is edifying, she's not doing it right.

[DU Ute]

My wife is going thru the same thing with her family right now. Just this weekend my MIL made my wife cry over it. It nuts.

My wife feels like she doesn't even know her mom and her twin sister anymore. Her TWIN sister! Her sister works at a job where she drives around all day listening to Hannity, Beck and Rush. I think that kind of extensive exposure to that garbage (from either side) will destroy you and ruin your ability to think, reason and, most importantly, empathize. The divisive rhetoric being spewed from both sides is a cancer that is tearing individuals and the country as a whole apart.

[Northwestcoug]

Given the vast majority of LDS women raised the same way that seem to have no problems with sex, I tend to agree that the minority have those issues for reasons other than their LDS upbringing.

I would tend to agree. But for those people who have issues, there are teachings in the church that definitely allow them to enforce their pathologies. I wonder if there's a type of personality that is easily harmed by the church teachings.

As far as we go, my wife and I had discussions before we got married. It was clear there were going to be a few boundaries. And when she said she didn't think oral sex was kosher, she certainly had a bunch of leaders to back her up. Thankfully after a while, she saw the folly of allowing the church in the bedroom. But again, I don't think she was an extreme minority in the church.

[San Juan Sun]

edited

I like you HWDSHNWIDB, but I think you paint with a very broad brush. You have absolutely no idea of what is going on in the minds and bedrooms of other people, and impugning their love for each other is going to miss the mark. I think it's great that you have a good, stable, lengthy relationship with your wife (I think we'd all applaud that), but you have no clue beyond the bounds of your own relationship. I say this respectfully, of course.

[Topper]

I would tend to agree. But for those people who have issues, there are teachings in the church that definitely allow them to enforce their pathologies. I wonder if there's a type of personality that is easily harmed by the church teachings.

As far as we go, my wife and I had discussions before we got married. It was clear there were going to be a few boundaries. And when she said she didn't think oral sex was kosher, she certainly had a bunch of leaders to back her up. Thankfully after a while, she saw the folly of allowing the church in the bedroom. But again, I don't think she was an extreme minority in the church.

Good point.

[Babs]

Sure. But I think it is entirely pointless for us to sit here and dissect and speculate on what was wrong with Topper's ex when she isn't here to defend herself or explain her side of the story.

Thank you! Publicly posting unverified stuff about a readily identifiable member of the church? Feels extremely not cool.

I think I'll follow hautey's lead.

[LA Ute]

Women (and men) hear what they want to hear. I'm not going to make judgements of this bishop or certainly not all church bishops based on what one guy says his wife understood from a talk with her bishop.

Totally agree. I was assuming he really did say that. I'm skeptical that he did, but if he did he was wrong. Any bishop who would give such advice is an extreme outlier, IMO.

EDIT: Babs makes an excellent point. I'm out.

[clackamascoug]

I like you clack, but I think you paint with a very broad brush. You have absolutely no idea of what is going on in the minds and bedrooms of other people, and impugning their love for each other is going to miss the mark. I think it's great that you have a good, stable, lengthy relationship with your wife (I think we'd all applaud that), but you have no clue beyond the bounds of your own relationship. I say this respectfully, of course.

I'm guess I'm glad I don't know, and I admit to being non curious about such things. However, I do think it's possible to debase good things by throwing in not so good things. Where do you draw the line? Just because two good LDS people want a third to join them, doesn't "make it OK in the bedroom."

I like you too, and am often amazed at the things you contribute, but I'm not going to follow the bread crumbs to jungle land. :humorattempt:nothingpersonal: