Good Sacrament Meeting Talk on Sunday

[CardiacCoug]

There was a pretty good talk this past week. What I got out of it (in between wrestling my kids) was that without faith in God we tend toward hopelessness and despair. If we cultivate our faith in God, we tend toward continual self-improvement based on hope for eternal progression and gradually approaching Godlike perfection.

I'm not sure if that concept applies to everyone -- certainly I have known people who are totally stressed out and guilty when they are trying to participate in the Church and then seem like much happier people after they quit the Church.

But I guess that general idea -- that belief in God and an afterlife leads to a more positive attitude and outlook on life -- is one of the main benefits of religion. If we just completely cease to exist the moment we die, everything does seem sort of pointless. If nothing else, believing in God is probably a useful strategy for coping with the inevitable depression and despair of knowing it's all just gonna end someday in the relatively near future.

[SeattleUte]

There was a pretty good talk this past week. What I got out of it (in between wrestling my kids) was that without faith in God we tend toward hopelessness and despair. If we cultivate our faith in God, we tend toward continual self-improvement based on hope for eternal progression and gradually approaching Godlike perfection.

I'm not sure if that concept applies to everyone -- certainly I have known people who are totally stressed out and guilty when they are trying to participate in the Church and then seem like much happier people after they quit the Church.

But I guess that general idea -- that belief in God and an afterlife leads to a more positive attitude and outlook on life -- is one of the main benefits of religion. If we just completely cease to exist the moment we die, everything does seem sort of pointless. If nothing else, believing in God is probably a useful strategy for coping with the inevitable depression and despair of knowing it's all just gonna end someday in the relatively near future.

At the same time ever notice how when someone expresses absence of belief in God they do it with reference to the religious tradition in which they were raised and grew to maturity? Even Dawkins, Harris and Hitchins basically just beat up on a straw man, the Judeo Christian God. This leads me to believe that religion is the biggest cause of unbelief. By the way, happy, accomplished fellows like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchins seem to debunk your SM speaker's thesis. Einstein too. Of course Harris says Buddhism is okay.

[RobinFinderson]

There was a pretty good talk this past week. What I got out of it (in between wrestling my kids) was that without faith in God we tend toward hopelessness and despair. If we cultivate our faith in God, we tend toward continual self-improvement based on hope for eternal progression and gradually approaching Godlike perfection.

I'm not sure if that concept applies to everyone -- certainly I have known people who are totally stressed out and guilty when they are trying to participate in the Church and then seem like much happier people after they quit the Church.

But I guess that general idea -- that belief in God and an afterlife leads to a more positive attitude and outlook on life -- is one of the main benefits of religion. If we just completely cease to exist the moment we die, everything does seem sort of pointless. If nothing else, believing in God is probably a useful strategy for coping with the inevitable depression and despair of knowing it's all just gonna end someday in the relatively near future.

As you seem to acknowledge, plenty of folks find the very opposite view to be far more compelling.

The literal belief that a judgmental and sometimes wrathful God was watching my every move, and that my eternal outcome depended on his measuring me up against some arbitrary and ambiguous 'commandments' caused me (and many others) a lot of stress.

The idea that it will all end with death makes it far more easy to enjoy the moment. It also makes the moment so much more precious, because that is all we have -- a series of moments, either enjoyed (in the garden?) or wasted (listening to a boring talk?).

As for the pursuit of 'the good life,' I can't speak for all nonbelievers, but I find that my love for others is a compelling reason to be good. Sure, I could be an evil SOB, and when I'm dead that will be the end of it, but is that the kind of world I want to leave behind to my son?

Oddly enough, it is love of others that compels my good behavior. What was described in the speaker's talk was not love of others, but rather hope for personal eternal progression, that motivated the believer. Which motivation is more 'Christian?'

[CardiacCoug]

At the same time ever notice how when someone expresses absence of belief in God they do it with reference to the religious tradition in which they were raised and grew to maturity? Even Dawkins, Harris and Hitchins basically just beat up on a straw man, the Judeo Christian God. This leads me to believe that religion is the biggest cause of unbelief. By the way, happy, accomplished fellows like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchins seem to debunk your SM speaker's thesis. Einstein too. Of course Harris says Buddhism is okay.

I had a feeling that you and RF would be the ones to comment on this, and I like your responses -- I think your viewpoints are completely valid.

It's obvious that a lot of people live very happy, fulfilled, and productive lives with the firm conviction that there is nothing beyond this life. But for other people, that attitude of "this is it" is depressing and possibly even paralyzing.

Whenever I see Hitchens being interviewed, he seems like kind of a miserable bastard, although I really like his writing and agree with many of his views.

[ERCougar]

I wish more talks would be along this line. For some reason, and it may be human nature, we have this tendency to beat ourselves up when faced with a standard of perfection. So many comments at church feed this tendency, while I think we should be focusing all of our efforts on fighting it. If we had, maybe RF would still be a member...

SU - I don't think for a second that all secularists are distinctly unhappy people. I don't have any idea if Hitchens and Dawkins are happy people, but everyone time I've seen them speak, I think "what a prick". I've never seen Harris interviewed, so I can't speak for him. I'm not sure they're good examples of happy and fulfilled secularists.

RF - I really like this aspect of secularism--the appreciation of the moment, the relationship, the simple act of love for no other end. I believe that there is some incomprehensible and mysterious truth out there that every major religion or philosophy attempts to describe in its own way and from its own perspective. You're even ascribing true "christianity" to the "secular" act of showing love in the moment. We LDS folks have much to learn from every religion/philosophy; secularism is no exception.

[ERCougar]

Whenever I see Hitchens being interviewed, he seems like kind of a miserable bastard, although I really like his writing and agree with many of his views.

LOL...you beat me to this.

[SeattleUte]

I had a feeling that you and RF would be the ones to comment on this.

Cardiac trolling unbelievers.

[RobinFinderson]

Cardiac trolling unbelievers.

And we gobbled his bait the way a six-year-old eats sacrament bread.

[DU Ute]

Oddly enough, it is love of others that compels my good behavior. What was described in the speaker's talk was not love of others, but rather hope for personal eternal progression, that motivated the believer. Which motivation is more 'Christian?'

I think this type of motivation for good behavior leads to insincerity in some people, both in the church and out. Sure, they'll be good to you when they have something to gain, or even just nothing to lose, but the instant it becomes a you vs. me scenario their instinct of self preservation kicks in and they'll turn on you. I think this is a natural instinct, but this "natural man" is something we are sent here to overcome. The people I admire most in and out of the church are those I sense would give me their last loaf of bread, even if it means they will starve. I try hard to befriend these people to compensate for my lack of food storage.

[DU Ute]

And we gobbled his bait the way a six-year-old eats sacrament bread.

This reminds me of my favorite sacrament bread story.

When my daughter was about two she was standing on the bench facing the back of the chapel while the sacrament was passed. As the tray went down the row behind us she reached over, grabbed a big handful and stuffed it in her mouth. The nice older gentleman behind us burst out laughing, it took him almost a minute to settle down.

[CardiacCoug]

Cardiac trolling unbelievers.

It wasn't purely trolling -- I think it's a genuinely unusual theme for an LDS speaker because it seemed to address the atheists or agnostics in the audience. I'm not sure that many in attendance on Sunday admit any doubts about whether God exists. Belief in God generally and Jesus Christ specifically are generally assumed in LDS talks and people just discuss something within the distinctive doctrines of our particular strain of Christianity instead of these broader questions.

But as I made that post, I thought that you guys would definitely disagree with the speaker's thesis. Like I said, I think what he says applies to a lot of people, but clearly not everyone.

[Babs]

But I guess that general idea -- that belief in God and an afterlife leads to a more positive attitude and outlook on life -- is one of the main benefits of religion. If we just completely cease to exist the moment we die, everything does seem sort of pointless. If nothing else, believing in God is probably a useful strategy for coping with the inevitable depression and despair of knowing it's all just gonna end someday in the relatively near future.

I think you're looking at a single instance of a larger truth. Sure, people are happier when they find their worth and purpose in things eternal instead of things temporal -- but it's not necessary to be theistic in order to define your life in indelible terms. For example, you could define yourself in terms of your progeny, or your philanthropy, or by works of art you've created. There are any number of secular efforts whose impact continues beyond the grave, and unbelievers can find purpose and fulfillment therein.

[CardiacCoug]

I think you're looking at a single instance of a larger truth. Sure, people are happier when they find their worth and purpose in things eternal instead of things temporal -- but it's not necessary to be theistic in order to define your life in indelible terms. For example, you could define yourself in terms of your progeny, or your philanthropy, or by works of art you've created. There are any number of secular efforts whose impact continues beyond the grave, and unbelievers can find purpose and fulfillment therein.

Yeah, that makes sense. I agree.

[Babs]

Yeah, that makes sense. I agree.

you're not near as argumentative as your brother.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Cardiac trolling unbelievers.

Of course, you of all people should admire the irony.