The Economic Manifesto

[byu71]

No, I understand what you mean by socialism. But you bring up an intriguing point about trusting someone else with wealth distribution. I guess most members trust their ecclesiastical leaders' decisions, so maybe if they didn't have that faith it would be replaced by a trust in government. I'm not sure. It seems like many Mormons love their economic freedom.

I am speaking of the truly "active" and "believing" members. I could be spouting beliefs from my youth and not being consistent with todays "active and ......." mormon.

I have always believed the "true" mormon should stand willing to give all his or her belonging to the church should they ask.

[Omaha 680]

I wonder if some LDS Democrats have a printed version of this hanging next to their redacted version of the Proclamation on the Family

http://ccdesan.livejournal.com/309044.html

Couple excerpts:

I hope they do hang it on their walls. It would be fun to see LDS Democrats appealing to the OT for support of their policy goals.

[il Padrino Ute]

Brigham Young preached blood atonement so take this with a grain of salt.

He also denied blacks the priesthood.

Let's look at his checklist:

racism
blood atonement
socialism

[Indy Coug]

He also denied blacks the priesthood.

Let's look at his checklist:

racism
blood atonement
socialism

So in other words, he was right except for the stuff I disagree with him about?

[Paperback Writer]

I don't view socialism as meaning you don't work hard. It is that someone else knows better how the "whole" is to be distributed.

Haven't you heard the term the poor "hard working americans" are ripped off by the rich. How many talks in church have you heard about guarding against going after riches.

How to square that with the proliferation of MLM enterprises in Utah? It's not like these MLM's split up the earnings equally among members. That would be more like profit sharing.

I do understand what you are describing and see much evidence of it. LDS are generally concerned about the welfare of others; sometimes to the detriment of the larger society. For example, the lousy football coach who doesn't get fired because he needs to support a family, is a good role model, and a member of the community in good standing.

But on the other hand, MLM flourish in Utah and can take advantage of the most vulnerable. I wouldn't be comfortable living the law of consecration in any population of LDS. There are well known reasons why it failed and would continue to fail.

[il Padrino Ute]

So in other words, he was right except for the stuff I disagree with him about?

I don't know. What is the stuff about which you agree and disagree with him?

[Indy Coug]

I don't know. What is the stuff about which you agree and disagree with him?

It's probably not the same list as yours, which then makes it hard to know which stuff we're right about.

[pellegrino]

I don't view socialism as meaning you don't work hard. It is that someone else knows better how the "whole" is to be distributed.

Haven't you heard the term the poor "hard working americans" are ripped off by the rich. How many talks in church have you heard about guarding against going after riches.

You're thinking of socialist dictatorships, and while there are similarities (BY "calling" people to settle certain areas, directing economic activities) it's not quite the same type of socialism that the Mormons lived in the 19th century.

[il Padrino Ute]

It's probably not the same list as yours, which then makes it hard to know which stuff we're right about.

Well, off the top of my head, I'm against racism, blood atonement and socialism. I'm too apathetic to agree or disagree about pretty much everything else.

[myboynoah]

Yes, but just a little background. It seems this was not a "manifesto" like other proclamations or manifestos. It was actually issued in response to criticism of the way ZCMI was formed and doing business. It seemed the ZCMI was more interested in providing goods at a reasonable price rather than making a healthy profit and the church seemed fit to emphasize the purpose of the business, which was a co-op. The people that signed the letter were on the board of ZCMI, however they were basically the whos-who of church leadership at the time.

So while it's not a formal manifesto or proclamation, it certainly emphasizes the economic thought and principles of church leadership of the time, which was more socialistic than capitalistic. It was a very interesting read, at least for me.

Thank goodness we got out of that business.

[BackBlast]

I think if it were not for the moral issues, most "active" mormons would gravitate to the socialist agenda economically.

I disagree.

The fundamental issue you must reconcile with socialism in government is that it is an agent of force. Making people do what is right is the devil's plan and the fundamental tenant rooted in the war in heaven. Well intentioned righteous people do fall for this trap, so I tend to agree that some more would gravitate. But many, including me, balk at force. And I'm sure we can all very accurately predict the outcome of these systems if the inputs were voluntary.

It's all fine and good to have utopian ideals for economic equality. But you should not use the government as a vehicle to get there. Such a state should be reached with common good will and hard work at the heart of every participant. These are not the ingredients, or even the fruits, of the government based experiments of the last century. IMHO the present systems cometh of evil.

Even the early saints, based on much better foundations, generally failed in this regard. We need a much more elevated level of spirituality before this kind of thing has a remote chance of success and being an elevating experience rather than a exercise in unrighteous dominion.

Now, reworking the land system to an inheritance based one rather than a buy and sell system. I could get behind that. And we need to take an axe to the property tax system as well... No realistic political movements there. But there are some good ideas that would build a better foundation for our communities.

[frank ryan]

I disagree.

The fundamental issue you must reconcile with socialism in government is that it is an agent of force. Making people do what is right is the devil's plan and the fundamental tenant rooted in the war in heaven. Well intentioned righteous people do fall for this trap, so I tend to agree that some more would gravitate. But many, including me, balk at force. And I'm sure we can all very accurately predict the outcome of these systems if the inputs were voluntary.

It's all fine and good to have utopian ideals for economic equality. But you should not use the government as a vehicle to get there. Such a state should be reached with common good will and hard work at the heart of every participant. These are not the ingredients, or even the fruits, of the government based experiments of the last century. IMHO the present systems cometh of evil.

Even the early saints, based on much better foundations, generally failed in this regard. We need a much more elevated level of spirituality before this kind of thing has a remote chance of success and being an elevating experience rather than a exercise in unrighteous dominion.

Now, reworking the land system to an inheritance based one rather than a buy and sell system. I could get behind that. And we need to take an axe to the property tax system as well... No realistic political movements there. But there are some good ideas that would build a better foundation for our communities.

But the Church did use the government and was the government for early Mormons.

[Portland Ute]

Utah was also the first state to have an 8 hour work day.

Curiously, many people I know that live in Utah and work spend much more than 8 hours per day.

An 8 hour work day. Must be quite the luxury.

[frank ryan]

Curiously, many people I know that live in Utah and work spend much more than 8 hours per day.

An 8 hour work day. Must be quite the luxury.