Opposite reactions dependent upon faith

[Jacob]

My uncle, 55, died in Russia of a massive heart attack. He was healthy, as far as I knew, and was in Russia serving a mission. He suffered his fate while on his daily walk/run with his wife.

The news is very sad for us.

At one point, after hearing the news this morning, I thought, "so much for being blessed while serving a mission."

My wife articulated the opposite reaction. The one that is very typical among Mormons and that I may have thought once upon a time, but that didn't enter my mind this morning. "He must have been just about perfect and went straight to heaven."

[wuapinmon]

Before I comment, are you wanting to discuss this in detail, or are you just seeking commiseration? I don't want to touch any raw nerves. Either way, I'm sorry that he loss was so sudden and amidst circumstances that can try the faith of some people.

[Jacob]

Before I comment, are you wanting to discuss this in detail, or are you just seeking commiseration? I don't want to touch any raw nerves. Either way, I'm sorry that he loss was so sudden and amidst circumstances that can try the faith of some people.

Not really commiserating. Just commenting upon how differing assumptions or levels of faith/belief lead to such disparate reactions to the same circumstance. I'd be happy to discuss.

[wuapinmon]

Not really commiserating. Just commenting upon how differing assumptions or levels of faith/belief lead to such disparate reactions to the same circumstance. I'd be happy to discuss.

You can square any act, no matter how heinous, with the Gospel if you know what you're doing. Some people are champions at it.

For example, in the face of the absolute horror of shit like this:

A 9-year-old girl was raped, bound and buried alive, kneeling and clutching a purple stuffed dolphin, state prosecutors said in documents released Wednesday.

Jessica Lunsford's (search) body was found March 19 buried about 150 yards from her house in Homosassa, about 60 miles north of Tampa.
According to the documents, Jessica was found wearing shorts and a shirt — different from the pink nightgown her family said she was wearing when they reported her missing Feb. 24, The Tampa Tribune said in its online edition late Wednesday.
The body was wrapped in two plastic trash bags knotted at her head and feet in a grave covered by a mound of leaves, the state attorney's office said in the documents.
Jessica died of asphyxiation, according to a coroner's report. A convicted sex offender,John Evander Couey (search), 46, is charged in her slaying.

When I got upset about this, some family members' trite response was that the Lord needed her for greater things.

HOW IN THE HELL COULD GOD LET A CHILD BE RAPED, BE BOUND, FORCED TO KNEEL INSIDE PLASTIC BAGS, BE BURIED ALIVE, AND SLOWLY ASPHYXIATE IN ORDER TO BRING HER TO THE OTHER SIDE FOR HIS PURPOSES?

The answer is God does an absolutely lousy job of explaining himself, and shit like that makes me want vengeance for the terror that man caused that little girl to feel. It's wretched and awful, and yet, D&C 59:21 says this:

And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

So, technically, my family is right it seems. But, I struggle to square the thousands of instances of stuff like this happening every year with that scripture. That story makes me cry. And it's just one of many. People were holding prayer vigils for her return. She was probably still alive while they were looking for her, right by her body, yet no one found her, despite the prayers.

[Non Sequitur]

HOW IN THE HELL COULD GOD LET A CHILD BE RAPED, BE BOUND, FORCED TO KNEEL INSIDE PLASTIC BAGS, BE BURIED ALIVE, AND SLOWLY ASPHYXIATE IN ORDER TO BRING HER TO THE OTHER SIDE FOR HIS PURPOSES?

I believe in a God, though I don't claim to understand His nature. But I like to think that God isn't omnipotent, that he doesn't just let things happen. That all he can do is pretty much steer the boat.

[DU Ute]

You can square any act, no matter how heinous, with the Gospel if you know what you're doing. Some people are champions at it.

For example, in the face of the absolute horror of shit like this:



When I got upset about this, some family members' trite response was that the Lord needed her for greater things.

HOW IN THE HELL COULD GOD LET A CHILD BE RAPED, BE BOUND, FORCED TO KNEEL INSIDE PLASTIC BAGS, BE BURIED ALIVE, AND SLOWLY ASPHYXIATE IN ORDER TO BRING HER TO THE OTHER SIDE FOR HIS PURPOSES?

The answer is God does an absolutely lousy job of explaining himself, and shit like that makes me want vengeance for the terror that man caused that little girl to feel. It's wretched and awful, and yet, D&C 59:21 says this:



So, technically, my family is right it seems. But, I struggle to square the thousands of instances of stuff like this happening every year with that scripture. That story makes me cry. And it's just one of many. People were holding prayer vigils for her return. She was probably still alive while they were looking for her, right by her body, yet no one found her, despite the prayers.

There is a big difference to confessing God's hand in all things and professing to know the mind and will of God in all things. I think that's what bugs some people about the response of some Mormon's to things like this. They can't just have faith that God is in control of things. Everything needs to have an explanation. Some people need to understand that some things we just don't know or comprehend, and that's OK.

[Sullyute]

You can square any act, no matter how heinous, with the Gospel if you know what you're doing. Some people are champions at it.

For example, in the face of the absolute horror of shit like this: ...

Wuap, the simple line about finding the young girl still clutching the purple dolphin as her assumed only form of final comfort brought big tears to my eyes. My daughter is the same age and thinking of someone hurting her just crushes my soul. I don't understand the evil that some people can afflict on others. I truly hope and believe that God does exist, not so he can punish the abuser/murderer but so that this sweet girl actually finds comfort and peace.

[wuapinmon]

I believe in a God, though I don't claim to understand His nature. But I like to think that God isn't omnipotent, that he doesn't just let things happen. That all he can do is pretty much steer the boat.

This is almost my belief, especially since my prayers now are more meditative and less like, I think ERCoug called them, a Christmas wish list. I'm still just not really sure. There's a song by the Mexican rock band Maná called "El reloj cucú." It's about a young boy whose father abandons the family, and there's a line that goes, "Este grito de amor/se lo doy al cielo /le pregunto tanto
tanto, tanto/ no contesta nada." A translation might read, "This cry/lament of love, I give it to the sky/heaven, I ask it so many many many things/ it never answers."

Sometimes, I feel like that feeling is de rigeur among Christians. People always tell me that God will never abandon us, that there are one set of footprints in the sand, and I think that's nice and comforting to some, but I find it almost callow, which is on me.

There is a big difference to confessing God's hand in all things and professing to know the mind and will of God in all things. I think that's what bugs some people about the response of some Mormon's to things like this. They can't just have faith that God is in control of things. Everything needs to have an explanation. Some people need to understand that some things we just don't know or comprehend, and that's OK.

It's not OK to me. God asks a lot from us to not explain himself better. Perhaps this is pride, but if I am that I might have joy, this silence is decidedly joyless to me.

Wuap, the simple line about finding the young girl still clutching the purple dolphin as her assumed only form of final comfort brought big tears to my eyes. My daughter is the same age and thinking of someone hurting her just crushes my soul. I don't understand the evil that some people can afflict on others. I truly hope and believe that God does exist, not so he can punish the abuser/murderer but so that this sweet girl actually finds comfort and peace.

Me too, man. Ever since I heard this story, I still get choked up thinking about her and the absolute terror she must have felt. This story alone makes me want the death penalty to be legal. I don't want him to suffer, but I think he has forfeited his right to live. He was given the death penalty, but he died from colon cancer in prison. What's worse, she was probably alive and in the house when the cops questioned her eventual killer.



If you don't want to cry anymore, then do not read this article:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/s...d/1_index.html

[UtahDan]

You can square any act, no matter how heinous, with the Gospel if you know what you're doing. Some people are champions at it.

People are very comfortable with a God who is completely immoral by any measure. That is fine with me as long as it doesn't make them apathetic about combating evil. As long as they remember that there is no help coming. That what happens in this world is up to us.

[Topper]

There is a big difference to confessing God's hand in all things and professing to know the mind and will of God in all things. I think that's what bugs some people about the response of some Mormon's to things like this. They can't just have faith that God is in control of things. Everything needs to have an explanation. Some people need to understand that some things we just don't know or comprehend, and that's OK.

Grief is real. Somehow, some believers simplify the grieving process, at least externally by relying upon the belief it works out for the best. It remains a mystery if this is simply a form of denial that never progresses through anger and depression, or if it somehow creates acceptance.

Grief is personal. Nonetheless, those statements seem like platitudes for persons who don't find relief from grief in the assurance of a future benefit.

[Jacob]

Grief is real. Somehow, some believers simplify the grieving process, at least externally by relying upon the belief it works out for the best. It remains a mystery if this is simply a form of denial that never progresses through anger and depression, or if it somehow creates acceptance.

Grief is personal. Nonetheless, those statements seem like platitudes for persons who don't find relief from grief in the assurance of a future benefit.

I don't know. You hear these things said by people who are not grieving and who have never had occasion to grieve the loss of a close loved one. Do you suppose that they are just setting themselves up for their future grief? I think something else is at play here. I think they say it because that's what they believe is happening or will happen.

[New Mexican Disaster]

[QUOTE=Jacob;840645]My uncle, 55, died in Russia of a massive heart attack. He was healthy, as far as I knew, and was in Russia serving a mission. He suffered his fate while on his daily walk/run with his wife.

The news is very sad for us.

At one point, after hearing the news this morning, I thought, "so much for being blessed while serving a mission."

QUOTE]

I felt the same way after my father had to leave his mission early for cancer treatment and then died.

[LA Ute]

I think one of the dumbest things people do is to try to explain sad events or bad acts as the will of God.

[Pheidippides]

I think one of the dumbest things people do is to try to explain sad events or bad acts as the will of God.

Agreed. I've seen bishops specifically shoot down this idea at funerals, and the bereaved find it comforting.

[LA Ute]

Agreed. I've seen bishops specifically shoot down this idea at funerals, and the bereaved find it comforting.

Looking back now, when the worst thing that ever happened to my family took place -- it was something in which they had no role other than as victims -- my prayer was basically, "I don't understand this, I'd like to understand someday, please just help me get through this for now, thank you for loving me." I think that is where many, if not most, believing people are at times like that.