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  • #1

    Misuse of Church Funds

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=chang...93&tx=83&ty=54

    It seems clear from the changes to the tithing slips that the Church realized that they had serious PR and maybe legal liability for taking money from the BofM, Temple, and Perp Edu funds and using them in other areas. Now they can do whatever they want with any donation with impunity.

    Now if they shifted $100,000 from the Temple fund to cover the building of a chapel in Nigeria or from the Perp Edu fund to cover the building of a seminary building in Bolivia I don't think anyone is going to complain too loudly. Although they might.

    But if they shifted $100 million from the Perp Edu fund to cover overages in building City Creek, and it becomes known, they are going to have a serious problem.

    I do know that they have far far more money in the Perp Edu fund than they can deploy responsibly. So they should invest it and get a reasonable return. I think we can all agree that there is nothing wrong with the Church earning a return on its holdings.

    But it is one thing to put reserves into a CD or even a PE Fund, on the one hand, and funding a commercial development that no private entity would ever undertake such as the retractable roofs and Bellagio fountains at City Creek. If people found out that their donation to assist poor returned missionaries in third world countries was diverted and used to pay for Tiffany's diamond showroom, I think people would not be pleased.

    To be clear, I have no idea of the details behind this change, but I think it is a big deal and I hope the forthcoming Reuters article has some details on the subject.
    A Mormon president could make a perfectly patriotic, competent, inspiring leader. But not Mitt Romney. He is a husked void. --David Javerbaum
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  • #2
    And since the Church's "overall mission" clearly includes things like developing and maintaining a really nice downtown Salt Lake City and promoting the Polynesian culture and providing quality programing for its various media outlets, it is now fully disclosed that your tithing or fast offering monies can and might be used for anything they want.

    This means it would be wrong going forward to claim that no tithing money is used for things like building that new $1billion resort going in across from the PCC or the BYU Football program. All Church money is now for the first time fungible. There is now no difference from a fast offering donation and income earned from the Church's investment in the Carlyle Group's 1995b defense contracter investment fund--either could be used for any purpose by the Church.
    A Mormon president could make a perfectly patriotic, competent, inspiring leader. But not Mitt Romney. He is a husked void. --David Javerbaum

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    • #3
      Isn't this change to the tithing slip being made too late to cover them for anything related to CCC building overages?
      "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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      • #4
        IMO, the most overwhelming need for the church to reallocate funds to shore up is the Fast Offerings. Particularly over the past 4-5 years in the global economic environment, the church has had serious stresses and strains placed on church welfare and the membership as a whole is doing a terrible job of making Fast Offering contributions.

        I realize this is a wonderful occasion for the tinfoilers to go hat shopping, but it's much more likely money is being reallocated there than it is to malls and dissident website monitoring.
        Everything in life is an approximation.

        http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
          IMO, the most overwhelming need for the church to reallocate funds to shore up is the Fast Offerings. Particularly over the past 4-5 years in the global economic environment, the church has had serious stresses and strains placed on church welfare and the membership as a whole is doing a terrible job of making Fast Offering contributions.

          I realize this is a wonderful occasion for the tinfoilers to go hat shopping, but it's much more likely money is being reallocated there than it is to malls and dissident website monitoring.
          Keep in mind that the church all just lost a bunch of members (we are taking dozens upon dozens) over the weekend due to the mass resignation event so they are probably scrambling to find a way to cover the lost donations to the PEF and BOM fund from that group.
          "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
            IMO, the most overwhelming need for the church to reallocate funds to shore up is the Fast Offerings. Particularly over the past 4-5 years in the global economic environment, the church has had serious stresses and strains placed on church welfare and the membership as a whole is doing a terrible job of making Fast Offering contributions.

            I realize this is a wonderful occasion for the tinfoilers to go hat shopping, but it's much more likely money is being reallocated there than it is to malls and dissident website monitoring.
            Well I hope and would like to think that extra money was shifted into Church welfare programs. Do we know that this happened?

            But we do know for sure that in the last few years the CCC project was over a billion dollars over budget and those monies had to come from somewhere too. Now even if those dollars came from the Carlyle Group investments, it is additional money that could have been shifted to welfare.

            So it isn't speculation to say monies were shifted to CCC. We know this happened when it went over budget. To my knowledge it is speculation to say monies were shifted to welfare. I haven't seen that reported.

            The problems are two fold: 1) they don't disclose so we'll never know how much went where (unless Reuters has a whistleblower) and 2) when money is fungible, as they now admit and disclose that it is, every expenditure is a statement of values. During the stresses and strains to welfare budgets you rightly note over the past few years, the Church prioritized two billion dollar + projects, CCC and the new resort across from the PolyCC in Hawaii.

            This says something: that they value a fancy downtown SLC and Laie more than other possible uses of the money. Maybe they value those things because they think these will be better investments than the Carlyle Group funds or maybe because they just love shopping at Swarovski and Tiffany or maybe because the wanted to provide local jobs in the economic downturn (ala Rockefeller Center during the Great Depression). Who knows why, they'll never tell. But we do know they value one thing over others and shifted significant funds that direction. This isn't speculation, just observation.

            But calling those who notice "tinfoilers" going "hat shopping" is a nice way to poison the conversation and deter those who might be interested from commenting. It is called chilling speech and authoritarian regimes are famous for it. You have learned well the pattern of shutting down discussion which might lead to discovering the truth behind the curtain.
            A Mormon president could make a perfectly patriotic, competent, inspiring leader. But not Mitt Romney. He is a husked void. --David Javerbaum

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            • #7

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              • #8
                We also need to keep in mind the new challenge church donors face in memorizing their membership number.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by YOhio View Post
                  We also need to keep in mind the new challenge church donors face in memorizing their membership number.
                  Yeah, like anyone is going to fill that line out. I still only put my name and the amount I'm donating, every other line is a waste of time.
                  "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Rambam View Post
                    But we do know for sure that in the last few years the CCC project was over a billion dollars over budget and those monies had to come from somewhere too. Now even if those dollars came from the Carlyle Group investments, it is additional money that could have been shifted to welfare.
                    I never saw anything on the $1 billion overage. Do you have a link with details?
                    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Rambam View Post
                      But calling those who notice "tinfoilers" going "hat shopping" is a nice way to poison the conversation and deter those who might be interested from commenting. It is called chilling speech and authoritarian regimes are famous for it. You have learned well the pattern of shutting down discussion which might lead to discovering the truth behind the curtain.
                      LOL. If there's one thing I have mastered at CUF it's shutting down discussion.

                      Get back to me when you stop using chilling rhetoric such as "Authoritarian regimes" and "truth behind the curtain" and then we can discuss the merits of automatically viewing everything the church does or might do in the worst light possible. Meanwhile, I'll return to the back room of the local wardhouse and continue beating some 5% tithepayer with a rubber hose.
                      Everything in life is an approximation.

                      http://twitter.com/CougarStats

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                        LOL. If there's one thing I have mastered at CUF it's shutting down discussion.
                        One wonders why you keep trying to shut down the discussion.

                        Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                        Get back to me when you stop using chilling rhetoric such as "Authoritarian regimes" and "truth behind the curtain" and then we can discuss the merits of automatically viewing everything the church does or might do in the worst light possible. Meanwhile, I'll return to the back room of the local wardhouse and continue beating some 5% tithepayer with a rubber hose.
                        Authoritarian regimes do use the tactic you just used. They do.

                        And there is no dispute that Church finance are all "behind the curtain". We are kept in the dark.

                        You get distracted so easily--I think you do it on purpose, change the subject and name call. The point is that you are wrong when you say it is speculation to note that money was shifted into CCC. And you speculate when you say money was shifted into welfare. I think. If I am wrong, please inform me.
                        A Mormon president could make a perfectly patriotic, competent, inspiring leader. But not Mitt Romney. He is a husked void. --David Javerbaum

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Dude you need to have more sex.
                          "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

                          "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

                          "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

                          -Rick Majerus

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Notorious J.I.C. View Post
                            Dude you need to have more sex.
                            I blame the chilling rhetoric.
                            Everything in life is an approximation.

                            http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Notorious J.I.C. View Post
                              Dude you need to have more sex.

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