Religion's obsolescenence as moral guide

[Non Sequitur]

Maybe. I'm just saying they didn't apply their religion, they didn't apply society's standards, they just went with their gut feeling about the "humane" way to deal with the situation.

You probably remember from LDS youth lesson manuals that scenarios are posed and then the kids are asked "What should John do in this situation?". It results in much eye rolling from me internally and of course from the kids, but honestly this Penn State thing makes me think that people need a script. They need to know with no doubt how to act in a big moral moment and have the conviction to follow through. This idea that people naturally do the right thing absent religion or some secular, societal external moral compass is naive.

How do you explain all the bishops and stake presidents who don't act on allegations of spouse abuse because they want to protect the reputations of leaders and priesthood holders? Religious leaders, ours included, are not immune to handling scandals "in-house". This issue has nothing to do with religion.

[CardiacCoug]

How do you explain all the bishops and stake presidents who don't act on allegations of spouse abuse because they want to protect the reputations of leaders and priesthood holders?

If that happens, that is also because those leaders are playing it by ear, trusting their own judgment. They aren't following the script, they aren't following the societal standard.

Sure, it's not really about religion, and I'm not saying that. I'm saying it has to do with trusting your own in-the-moment feeling about the right course of action rather than following a script of right action based on something external to yourself.

I'm not saying religion is even necessarily a good thing, except that if properly applied it could be one of those external standards.

[CardiacCoug]

How do you explain all the bishops and stake presidents who don't act on allegations of spouse abuse because they want to protect the reputations of leaders and priesthood holders? Religious leaders, ours included, are not immune to handling scandals "in-house". This issue has nothing to do with religion.

Another thought: the article by Brooks provides a great explanation for why smart, accomplished, respected people go rogue in these situations and do the wrong thing, rather than following the obvious external ethic.

It may be partly explained by the Moral Diet approach -- that as long as you eat right most of the time, you can then eat a little bit of bad stuff guilt-free. Joe Paterno, the guys at Penn State, and the Bishops/Stake Presidents you describe, see themselves as "great men" who have done so many great things and are so respected that they can break the rules when they feel like it because on the whole they would still be great people.

Obviously none of us know what Paterno was thinking at the time but it's a cautionary tale of how great men can commit unbelievable sins -- maybe because they see themselves as great?

[Non Sequitur]

Joe Paterno, the guys at Penn State, and the Bishops/Stake Presidents you describe, see themselves as "great men" who have done so many great things and are so respected that they can break the rules when they feel like it because on the whole they would still be great people

I'm not sure it's about personal egos. I think it simply comes down to protecting the institution.

[SeattleUte]

It may be partly explained by the Moral Diet approach -- that as long as you eat right most of the time, you can then eat a little bit of bad stuff guilt-free. Joe Paterno, the guys at Penn State, and the Bishops/Stake Presidents you describe, see themselves as "great men" who have done so many great things and are so respected that they can break the rules when they feel like it because on the whole they would still be great people.

Yes, yes, Aristotle, who really was not a religious man, innovated the "Moral Diet". Excellence or "virtue" is a habit, remember? That is not a Christian or Jewish but a pagan innovation.

Okay, we get the Moral Diet. Aristotle is a Great Man in part for that contribution to Western philosophy.

But it's still not clear to me why you think religion is the sole or best source of the Moral Diet, or that religious self-perceived "Great Men" are any more immune from Paterno's rationalizations than unbelievers. History shows us otherwise; indeed, Paterno considered himself religious.

Here we have you and Brooks saying religious people are generally more moral, but when religion held sway in our insitutions, there was slavery and polygamy, women didn't vote and there were no women lawyers or hardly any female physicians, there was no representative government or constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties (which are incompatible with theocracy).

And then, again, the study Brooks cites didn't even purport to show the flight of fancy in which he engaged.

It's cute to see you and Brooks, who are yourselves not so religious in the traditional sense, try to throw a bone to religious people. But you're just making yourselves look silly.

[SeattleUte]

http://www.latimes.com/science/scien...#axzz2qPlDIS3J

It's turning out that the LDS Church was wrong about everything, except, I gues, wide streets in downtown Salt Lake and cigarettes. (Are electronic cigarettes against the WoW?)

[SeattleUte]

Also, note that it's not enough to drink diet coke to get caffiene's health and psychological benefits. It's got to be the amount of caffeine you'd get from a grande lattte.

[Lost Student]

Also, note that it's not enough to drink diet coke to get caffiene's health and psychological benefits. It's got to be the amount of caffeine you'd get from a grande lattte.

What about caffeine pills?

[SCcoug]

http://www.latimes.com/science/scien...#axzz2qPlDIS3J

It's turning out that the LDS Church was wrong about everything, except, I gues, wide streets in downtown Salt Lake and cigarettes. (Are electronic cigarettes against the WoW?)

lol @ SU. The WoW doesn't even mention caffeine.

Get it right!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Also, note that it's not enough to drink diet coke to get caffiene's health and psychological benefits. It's got to be the amount of caffeine you'd get from a grande lattte.

I am currently nursing a 44-oz Diet Coke with lime from Sonic. Does that count?

[San Juan Sun]

I am currently nursing a 44-oz Diet Coke with lime from Sonic. Does that count?

No. If you went to Sonic and got something other than a variation of an Ocean Water, you've wasted a Sonic run.

[clackamascoug]

I am currently nursing a 44-oz Diet Coke with lime from Sonic. Does that count?

A Lactating Lebowski - my suspicions are confirmed.

[jay santos]

fyi these are not against the WOW

[SeattleUte]

It would have made a great Woody Allen movie in the '70s (had many people even cared about Mormons). A pious Mormon dies and goes to the afterlife and finds out everything is backwards from what he was taught as a Mormon. He finds out that coffee, wine and whisky is good for you. It's good to marry someone your own gender and have kids, bad to hate gays. Black people who have suffered from white racism are among the most blessed people Christ referenced in the Sermon on the Mount. Masturbation and pre-marital sex help prevent prostate cancer. Indians came from Asia not Europe. Women are smarter than men -- just like boys and girls.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It would have made a great Woody Allen movie in the '70s (had many people even cared about Mormons). A pious Mormon dies and goes to the afterlife and finds out everything is backwards from what he was taught as a Mormon. He finds out that coffee, wine and whisky is good for you. It's good to marry someone your own gender and have kids, bad to hate gays. Black people who have suffered from white racism are among the most blessed people Christ referenced in the Sermon on the Mount. Masturbation and pre-marital sex help prevent prostate cancer. Indians came from Asia not Europe. Women are smarter than men -- just like boys and girls.

SU, have you read this novella?

http://www.amazon.com/Short-Stay-Hel...t+stay+in+hell

It is about a Mormon that dies and finds out that the one true religion is Zoroastrianism. Therefore he is banished to hell along with most of the rest of the planet. Then it covers what he does in hell for the next few billion years. Illustrates the absurdity of the concept of eternal damnation. Also, very haunting. Really a great little book. Highly recommended.