India Has Their First LDS Stake

[Paperback Writer]

Ok. But when it happens, it will be as a result of a major paradigm shift on the part of the Church. Either the corporate managers they have brought in as Apostles will play against type and shake things up, or a new force will be brought to bear. I don't think God will abrogate agency and force them to move. It will take another SWK, a real leader willing to lead instead of a manager ably managing. Maybe a leader is hiding in the ranks. I hope so. Maybe Nielson? Maybe Holland?

In addition to Goatnapper's papal blessing, I'd add that I wouldn't wait for the next SWK to shake things up unless SLC makes a fundamental change. In my expereince, the way large organizations remain competitive and adapt to constant change is that they move decision making and power to lower levels. Executive leadership supporting local units as they adapt and change to meet the needs of their customers/constituency. The top-down orientation of the chuch would need to change and the CHOI would need to be ignored or better yet burned. Correlation woud need to cease to exist.

Perhaps there would be a day when local congregations choose their leadership and tithing monies stay locally first and then go to SLC (instead of the reverse) but that would really take a fundamental change. I'm not sure SLC is ready to relinquish power and I'm not sure the membership is ready for it.

[The Rambam]

I did love the believer telling the Apostles that they suck shit when compared to all the ones of the past. Great stuff.

It really happened. They did not take it well.

Here's an article from 20 years ago about the church in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. While this is mostly an FYI post, here is a quote that is somewhat relevant to the discussion of the growth rate in India:

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1993/10/t...lanka?lang=eng

Thanks for the quote. It encapsulates everything that is wrong with our missionary work. We are so concerned that the meeting be conducted right, that the 18th Cent. English hymns be sung right and that we refrain from teaching Christ crucified and priesthood restored to people until we are confident they are sufficiently American-Mormonized.

Think about it. We purposefully limit our preaching of the Resurrection Lord and his sanctifying atonement because we fear that if they accepted the gospel of Christ that they won't remain productive members of the church apparatus. You would think that we believed that salvation depended not on an acceptance of Christ and the sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit, but rather on meeting attendance, the wearing of white shirts and ties, the ability to speak in "general conference voice", and knowing that there is to be no food left in the church refrigerator overnight.

We are so concerned about making them Mormon that we refrain from making them disciples of Christ. We need a Paul to remind our Peters that converts don't have to accept the church culture to be saved by Christ. You would think we could have picked up that one lesson from the NT, but we clearly haven't. No green tea (shellfish) for you! Everyone must wear short haircuts with no beards (be circumcised)!

[Blueintheface]

Anecdotal but my buddy served in India in the 90's and felt like it was set to explode. The church may have had a dissimilar approach moving forward.

Also, I don't have any lint in my navel.

[The_Douger]

My cousins served there and said the same.

[Goatnapper'96]

Anecdotal but my buddy served in India in the 90's and felt like it was set to explode. The church may have had a dissimilar approach moving forward.

Also, I don't have any lint in my navel.

I will join RamBam in his bam-bamming the LDS Church leadership over this one. It just dawned on me that had we more earnestly sought to establish the Kingdom of God in Bombay in the mid 90's, I might get the chance to enjoy my beloved Shrimp Tiki Masalla without having to drive all the way to the WF. Perhapls little ol Holbrook, Stone or even Snowville might have an Indian eatery for me. Normally, well to be honest in all cases, I think the bamRam is just a perpetual stringpuller unable to get at that itch, bad yeast disease or something, but in this case I lock arms with him and say the 12 don't know crap about cricket!

[The Rambam]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...st-stake-india

As a side note, the church is creeping up on 3,000 stakes; currently they are at 2,946.

I think what eats at me is that Indy posts this, and we see this all the time in the Church, in order to be proud of Church growth because it validates the truthfulness of our claims, the divinity of our mission.

But it is mostly a sham. The reported membership numbers are grossly inflated. And we have completely failed, to this point, in bringing knowledge of Christ and the atonement and the restored gospel to the Indian subcontinent. But members will hold this stake creation up as a proof of how great we are.

Yes, yes, I know that Indy continues to play coy and vague (and he will deny he implied that by posting the creation of the stake he was implying we are doing good work in India) but we all know how this stuff plays out. We are so busy victory lapping that we have forgotten the purpose of the race.

[SoonerCoug]

But it is mostly a sham. The reported membership numbers are grossly inflated.

This sort of news does make the company's investors feel like their money is being put to good use.

[Indy Coug]

I think what eats at me is that Indy posts this, and we see this all the time in the Church, in order to be proud of Church growth because it validates the truthfulness of our claims, the divinity of our mission.

But it is mostly a sham. The reported membership numbers are grossly inflated. And we have completely failed, to this point, in bringing knowledge of Christ and the atonement and the restored gospel to the Indian subcontinent. But members will hold this stake creation up as a proof of how great we are.

Yes, yes, I know that Indy continues to play coy and vague (and he will deny he implied that by posting the creation of the stake he was implying we are doing good work in India) but we all know how this stuff plays out. We are so busy victory lapping that we have forgotten the purpose of the race.

1. I am of the opinion that growth rates have zero correlation to the truthfulness of the Gospel or effectiveness of its missionary efforts. I have several dispensations and thousands of years of historical data on my side.

2. I lived in Saudi Arabia when Elder Packer made it a stake. I know what it's like to be in a far flung outpost of the church. I have spent many years living with, going to school with and working with Indians and I have an affinity for the Indian people.

So when I post the story of the first Indian stake, I do so because I'm happy that the good people of India are accepting the Gospel.

[Blueintheface]

1. I am of the opinion that growth rates have zero correlation to the truthfulness of the Gospel or effectiveness of its missionary efforts. I have several dispensations and thousands of years of historical data on my side.

2. I lived in Saudi Arabia when Elder Packer made it a stake. I know what it's like to be in a far flung outpost of the church. I have spent many years living with, going to school with and working with Indians and I have an affinity for the Indian people.

So when I post the story of the first Indian stake, I do so because I'm happy that the good people of India are accepting the Gospel.

Your happiness and affinity for the Indian people is irrelevant. You haven't read as much as Rambam and couldn't know more than him.

[The Rambam]

1. I am of the opinion that growth rates have zero correlation to the truthfulness of the Gospel or effectiveness of its missionary efforts. I have several dispensations and thousands of years of historical data on my side.

If you start with the premise that Mormonism is correct, the only conclusion you can arrive at, after looking at the historical data and the current situation, is that God doesn't care if his children know about his true nature and the plan of salvation. You can't blame 4000 years of failure to effectively disseminate truth on every successive group of Prophets. At no time in recorded history have a significant percentage of Earth's inhabitants known about God (as we define and understand Him and His plan for us). Ministerial malpractice. Or he doesn't care.

2. I lived in Saudi Arabia when Elder Packer made it a stake. I know what it's like to be in a far flung outpost of the church. I have spent many years living with, going to school with and working with Indians and I have an affinity for the Indian people.

So when I post the story of the first Indian stake, I do so because I'm happy that the good people of India are accepting the Gospel.

And so if God doesn't care, they why should we? Why does it make us happy to perceive that the good people of India are accepting the Gospel. Is it anything more than self validation--I must be cool because others want to join my club?

And the point of my previous posts in this thread is that your premise is a lie--Indians are not accepting the gospel in any significant number--there is little to be happy about here. The progress is illusory. Over 30 years of open access and ongoing missionary work and we have one Stake in the second most populous nation on Earth. With no presence in their largest and most important cultural city, Mumbai/Bombay.

Are these results really worthy of a pat on the back? Shouldn't this instead be a wake-up call that we are failing in fundamental ways? Maybe we should try something different in India? In another 30 years we will have a second stake in India and you can celebrate in your 70s Mormonism's continued success!

But you can take solace in that our investments are vast and those new fountains sure are amazing outside Swarovski's. And we are increasing the number of Galas being held in the Gordon B. Hinckley Conference Center.

[The Rambam]

Your happiness and affinity for the Indian people is irrelevant. You haven't read as much as Rambam and couldn't know more than him.

Try not to be distracted by shiny things. It matters not who knows more facts. The question is who is right?

Is the creation of the first stake in India a cause for celebration of our good work there and representative of the spiritual awakening of the Indian people to truth restored?

Or is this a moment to pause and notice how poor our results have been in proportion to the opportunity presented and our resources available for allocation?

Of course it is both. The stake is progress, evidence of at least 80 temple worthy priesthood holders. Yeah! (sincerely)

And it is a glaring opportunity to notice that we have to do better if we care about the Grand Commission to go into all the world and preach His gospel to every creature.

Do you have anything intelligent to add? I'd love to hear it.

[LA Ute]

I find you arrogant beyond all sufferability but the chances are others find me likewise.

You're beyond sufferable, Goat. No worries there. But you have inspired an idea. Lebowski should rename the "ignore" feature "insufferable." Then we'll get a prompt that says, "This message is hidden because ***** is on your insufferable list." I like the sound of that.

[Indy Coug]

If you start with the premise that Mormonism is correct, the only conclusion you can arrive at, after looking at the historical data and the current situation, is that God doesn't care if his children know about his true nature and the plan of salvation. You can't blame 4000 years of failure to effectively disseminate truth on every successive group of Prophets. At no time in recorded history have a significant percentage of Earth's inhabitants known about God (as we define and understand Him and His plan for us). Ministerial malpractice. Or he doesn't care.

Undoubtedly it's both.

[smokymountainrain]

If you can't wait until April 9 to watch cricket, we've got something special in store for you! Even though the IPL is broadcast live on satellite TV, it is prohibitively costly to watch if you are not in India. There is, however, a bypass to watch IPL live online.

thank you. it's about damn time!

[BigFatMeanie]

Man, resurrecting this thread just reminded me of Rambam.