The Correlation Committee strikes again

[Indy Coug]

I had a family over for dinner a bit ago who have left the Church. The cumulative effect of the crazy become too much at a point. If the orthodox in the Church cared more about them than bare shoulders, maybe they'd still be in the Church.

Maybe if more members spent less time tilting at windmills and spent more time caring about members in need and helping them identify and appropriately prioritize the important spiritual things to be concerned about, maybe fewer members would leave the church.

[lambdacoug]

Maybe if more members spent less time tilting at windmills and spent more time caring about members in need and helping them identify and appropriate prioritize the important spiritual things to be concerned about, maybe fewer members would leave the church.

One way or another, it always comes back to how the members don't do it right...afterall the church is perfect, the members aren't.

[ERCougar]

Maybe if more members spent less time tilting at windmills and spent more time caring about members in need and helping them identify and appropriately prioritize the important spiritual things to be concerned about, maybe fewer members would leave the church.

I'd like you to flesh (ha!) this one out a little more, please.

What spiritual things are we inappropriately prioritizing as a church that are causing people to leave it?

[ERCougar]

At first, I was merely annoyed. But knowing this, I am now angry. If I had any power, I'd fire the committee members who did this.

If people treated your religion posts the same way you treat theirs (your gross misuse of "confirmation bias" comes immediately to mind...), this board would get lame pretty quickly.

[Indy Coug]

I'd like you to flesh (ha!) this one out a little more, please.

What spiritual things are we inappropriately prioritizing as a church that are causing people to leave it?

It's not a church thing, it's an individual thing. For a basic outline, I refer you to Elder Oaks' "Good, Better, Best" talk.

[TripletDaddy]

I'd like you to flesh (ha!) this one out a little more, please.

What spiritual things are we inappropriately prioritizing as a church that are causing people to leave it?

I think he is saying that if members spent less time tilting at windmills and more time focusing on what is important, then perhaps fewer of those same members would wind up leaving the Church.

Indy, please correct me if I am wrong. Also, please explain why you used "maybe" twice in the same sentence.

[Indy Coug]

Also, please explain why you used "maybe" twice in the same sentence.

Maybe it's due to a failure in multi-tasking, maybe it's not.

[Indy Coug]

One way or another, it always comes back to how the members don't do it right...afterall the church is perfect, the members aren't.

The church are the members. Therefore, perfecting the members will the be way to perfecting the church, not vice versa.

[cowboy]

The alteration of the artwork without is disclosure is a form of dishonesty, especially in the context they used it.

This may be the only thing you ever say that I agree with. I'll admit being bothered by it. On the other hand, I disagree wholeheartedly with your assertion that the orthodoxy is equivalent to dishonesty. I don't think anyone has been hurt here, so there is nobody to apologize to, but I would like to see a correction printed in the Ensign with the real painting.

Honesty is a big deal. Everyone will lie to avoid consequences, and our goal should be to continually set the bar higher for ourselves in term of personal honesty. Dishonesty of this sort, however, seems self-serving and I can't see a good justification for it.

As has been said, this is a story about the painting itself, and to make the changes in this context moves the issue from a 'roll your eyes and shrug it off' to 'wow, I'm embarrassed, and really think this should be corrected' situation.

[Pheidippides]

This may be the only thing you ever say that I agree with. I'll admit being bothered by it. On the other hand, I disagree wholeheartedly with your assertion that the orthodoxy is equivalent to dishonesty. I don't think anyone has been hurt here, so there is nobody to apologize to, but I would like to see a correction printed in the Ensign with the real painting.

Honesty is a big deal. Everyone will lie to avoid consequences, and our goal should be to continually set the bar higher for ourselves in term of personal honesty. Dishonesty of this sort, however, seems self-serving and I can't see a good justification for it.

As has been said, this is a story about the painting itself, and to make the changes in this context moves the issue from a 'roll your eyes and shrug it off' to 'wow, I'm embarrassed, and really think this should be corrected' situation.

Yeah, that's about the level of it. Context makes it go from "ha, I'm shaking my head at how dumb that is," to "seriously, WTF guys, please fix it so we don't look any dumber than we already are."

I feel bad for the author. He/she probably had nothing to do with the defacement, unless I'm missing something.

[The Rambam]

Maybe if more members spent less time tilting at windmills and spent more time caring about members in need and helping them identify and appropriately prioritize the important spiritual things to be concerned about, maybe fewer members would leave the church.

And here is the core of the matter. The Orthodox believe that showing shoulders is indecent and dishonesty and the destruction of art is justified to prevent such indecency. The thing Mormons should identify as important and prioritize and be concerned with is hyper-modesty. Dishonesty and destruction of art are trifling things, not to be fretted about--tilting at windmills.

It is a wonder the Church is doing as well as it is.

One way or another, it always comes back to how the members don't do it right...afterall the church is perfect, the members aren't.

Of course Indy is right. If you conform in all ways to the Church's policies, if you do what they say in all things, if you subdue your inner-light and defer to the Handbook of Instructions in all things--you will never leave the Church. If that is your highest goal, then by all means, do it.

It's not a church thing, it's an individual thing. For a basic outline, I refer you to Elder Oaks' "Good, Better, Best" talk.

A very odd choice of citation. The talk focuses on how we can best spend time as individuals with our families.

It also says that 1) Church meetings/obligations can be minimized so more time can be spend with family, 2) Home teachers should share a spiritual message and make a difference in the lives of the families they visit, and 3) teachers should stick to the manual when teaching from the Lives of the Prophets books.

Are you saying that if we spend time working playing with our families instead of playing video games or watching vapid sitcoms, we won't care when the Church dishonestly alters great art to desexualize non-sexual angels kneeling at the resurrected Christ's feet? Are you saying that if I stick to the manual when I teach Elder's Q, I won't be saddened by the Church's unhealthy obsession with trying to prevent my daughters from becoming pornography by wearing a sleeveless blouse to go get a snow cone down the road on a hot summer afternoon? I guess that is exactly what you are saying.

I think you are crazy. I think you really are afraid that some Webelo scout would sneek off into the bathroom with the Ensign and play a symphony on the one hole finger flute. I guess our protagonist would fold the page so Jesus wasn't signaling a touchdown in approval of the performance. Couldn't risk this likely scenario, could we.

[Indy Coug]

And here is the core of the matter. The Orthodox believe that showing shoulders is indecent and dishonesty and the destruction of art is justified to prevent such indecency. The thing Mormons should identify as important and prioritize and be concerned with is hyper-modesty. Dishonesty and destruction of art are trifling things, not to be fretted about--tilting at windmills.

It is a wonder the Church is doing as well as it is.



Of course Indy is right. If you conform in all ways to the Church's policies, if you do what they say in all things, if you subdue your inner-light and defer to the Handbook of Instructions in all things--you will never leave the Church. If that is your highest goal, then by all means, do it.



A very odd choice of citation. The talk focuses on how we can best spend time as individuals with our families.

It also says that 1) Church meetings/obligations can be minimized so more time can be spend with family, 2) Home teachers should share a spiritual message and make a difference in the lives of the families they visit, and 3) teachers should stick to the manual when teaching from the Lives of the Prophets books.

Are you saying that if we spend time working playing with our families instead of playing video games or watching vapid sitcoms, we won't care when the Church dishonestly alters great art to desexualize non-sexual angels kneeling at the resurrected Christ's feet? Are you saying that if I stick to the manual when I teach Elder's Q, I won't be saddened by the Church's unhealthy obsession with trying to prevent my daughters from becoming pornography by wearing a sleeveless blouse to go get a snow cone down the road on a hot summer afternoon? I guess that is exactly what you are saying.

I think you are crazy. I think you really are afraid that some Webelo scout would sneek off into the bathroom with the Ensign and play a symphony on the one hole finger flute. I guess our protagonist would fold the page so Jesus wasn't signaling a touchdown in approval of the performance. Couldn't risk this likely scenario, could we.

Wow. Based on this response, you are the crazy one. What a bunch of hyperbolic drivel.

I could formulate a point by point response to your post but I'm going to save a lot of time and just say that you are batting 0.000 with everything you've said here.

[ERCougar]

It's not a church thing, it's an individual thing. For a basic outline, I refer you to Elder Oaks' "Good, Better, Best" talk.

Ok...a little more clear, but still an interesting assertion. Here's the quote:

Maybe if more members spent less time tilting at windmills and spent more time caring about members in need and helping them identify and appropriately prioritize the important spiritual things to be concerned about, maybe fewer members would leave the church.

Members leave the church because they don't care enough about members in need and are concerned about the wrong spiritual things. Is that about right?
Specific examples?

[Jeff Lebowski]

That sounds like a good plan, Indy. We can stem the tide of people leaving the church by telling them to grow up and stop focusing on stupid things.

[Indy Coug]

That sounds like a good plan, Indy. We can stem the tide of people leaving the church by growing up and stop focusing on stupid things and instead minister to those in need.

FIFY