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  • SeattleUte
    Faith crisis consultant
    • Nov 2008
    • 20837

    #1

    The Forum for Serious Spiritual Discussion

    Some here have lamented the lack of serious spiritual discussion on Cuf. Well, I’m establishing this thread as the place for it. Please, only uplifting, serious, deeply meaningful stuff. Take elsewhere your priesthood ban or polygamy acrimony, Book of Mormon historicity wishfulness, or hereafter speculations. (Yes, I recognize this thread may well be very short lived on page 1, or even an airball. But I yearn to share, am constrained to do so.)

    Last weekend I had a discussion with a couple of neighbors about which is more loathsome, spiders or rats. This brought to mind my favorite children’s book, a deeply Christian and spiritual story, “Charlotte’s Web”. Something ironic about “Charlotte’s Web” is that the bare plot outline appears so ridiculous and uninteresting. Here is Wikipedia’s rendition of the premise:

    The novel tells the story of a pig named Wilbur and his friendship with a barn spider named Charlotte. When Wilbur is in danger of being slaughtered by the farmer, Charlotte writes messages praising Wilbur (such as "Some Pig") in her web in order to persuade the farmer to let him live.
    (Notably, the messages are derived from labels brought from a junkyard by a barnyard rat.)

    Pretty silly sounding, don’t you think? Yet, when I read the novel to my young children a few months ago, while reading the latter part of the story I burst into tears. Did I cry over the death of a spider from natural causes? Of course not; Charlotte is effectively a human being; the story is such exquisite allegory it could be scripture.

    The part that for me is excruciatingly sad is when Wilbur’s salvation is secure, he is closing in on his triumphal moment at the fair, and Charlotte is dying—all the while Wilbur is yammering about himself, so self-absorbed about his fame and his hopes for a blue ribbon and still paranoid about his own safety that he fails to realize what is happening to her, despite her many hints. Ultimately, however, Wilbur rises to the occasion, properly mourning his savior’s demise and bringing home in his mouth what Charlotte called her “magnum opus”, her egg sack (not the talking webs; LA here is a good example of irony).

    How many of us have had someone in our lives in every sense what Charlotte is so artfully emblematic? How many of us can claim to have ever ourselves lived up to Charlotte's perfectly abnegating example? I submit it's a rare thing, even in our "enlightened" age.

    Thus we experience the essence of Christianity, what Paul calls Charity in the KJV: two of our world’s lowliest and most loathsome creatures exhibiting unmatched heroism, quiet dignity and self-sacrifice while expecting no worldly reward (that is absolutely true for Charlotte if not Templeton) or recognition. I submit that thusly turning the world upside down is a uniquely Christian innovation. If you disagree, you might read Neitzsche’s The Antichrist. He thought so, and thus his eloquent condemnations of Christianity ironically are perhaps its most persuasive compliments, albeit in a backhanded way.

    If there is such thing as “feeling the spirit”, it happens for me at such times as reading Charlotte’s Web to my children and bursting into tears. For it is at those times that I feel human beings are capable of more than nature’s call to the hunt, the bloodletting, will to triumph and to power, and drive to satisfaction of desires.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift
  • taekwondave
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2011
    • 1160

    #2
    I don't know why nobody has said it yet: Awesome post.

    Comment

    • SeattleUte
      Faith crisis consultant
      • Nov 2008
      • 20837

      #3
      I believe that fundamentally a religion's text, its scripture, is its mainspring, wellspring, powersource, whatever. I note that Far Eastern religions hold an attraction for many unbelievers. Sam Harris exempts them from his mockery and condemnations of "religion" (Chris Hitichins showed awesome discipline and consistency in trashing the Far Eastern religions as well as monotheism in his "God is Not Great").

      I've never really read much of the texts out of which Hindism, Buddhism etc. sprang. Someone got me a calendar with sayings from these religous traditions and they don't impress me. I disagree with many of them, sometimes I say "Huh?" or I laugh out loud. Many are downright silly. I was initially struck by the bluntness and lack of eloquence. Of course you all know my high regard for the Bible, especially the KJV and particularly Old Testament, as an unsurpassed literary artifact, despite my undbelief in its literalness. Yes, it can give me chills, or make me cry.

      What is the attraction of Far Eastern religions to unbelievers? I assume their quest is for deep spiritual connection despite their unbelief in historicity of the myths and epics (including the Bible).
      Last edited by SeattleUte; 05-15-2012, 11:55 AM.
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

      Comment

      • Jeff Lebowski
        Corporate lackey for Jesus
        • Nov 2008
        • 69551

        #4
        Today I saw an original Gutenberg bible; one of only three in existence that were printed on vellum (which is best for long-term preservation - it is in superb condition). It almost brought me to tears.
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

        Comment

        • LA Ute
          Receiver of Memory
          • Nov 2008
          • 19512

          #5
          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          Some here have lamented the lack of serious spiritual discussion on Cuf. Well, I’m establishing this thread as the place for it. Please, only uplifting, serious, deeply meaningful stuff. Take elsewhere your priesthood ban or polygamy acrimony, Book of Mormon historicity wishfulness, or hereafter speculations. (Yes, I recognize this thread may well be very short lived on page 1, or even an airball. But I yearn to share, am constrained to do so.)

          Last weekend I had a discussion with a couple of neighbors about which is more loathsome, spiders or rats. This brought to mind my favorite children’s book, a deeply Christian and spiritual story, “Charlotte’s Web”. Something ironic about “Charlotte’s Web” is that the bare plot outline appears so ridiculous and uninteresting. Here is Wikipedia’s rendition of the premise:



          (Notably, the messages are derived from labels brought from a junkyard by a barnyard rat.)

          Pretty silly sounding, don’t you think? Yet, when I read the novel to my young children a few months ago, while reading the latter part of the story I burst into tears. Did I cry over the death of a spider from natural causes? Of course not; Charlotte is effectively a human being; the story is such exquisite allegory it could be scripture.

          The part that for me is excruciatingly sad is when Wilbur’s salvation is secure, he is closing in on his triumphal moment at the fair, and Charlotte is dying—all the while Wilbur is yammering about himself, so self-absorbed about his fame and his hopes for a blue ribbon and still paranoid about his own safety that he fails to realize what is happening to her, despite her many hints. Ultimately, however, Wilbur rises to the occasion, properly mourning his savior’s demise and bringing home in his mouth what Charlotte called her “magnum opus”, her egg sack (not the talking webs; LA here is a good example of irony).

          How many of us have had someone in our lives in every sense what Charlotte is so artfully emblematic? How many of us can claim to have ever ourselves lived up to Charlotte's perfectly abnegating example? I submit it's a rare thing, even in our "enlightened" age.

          Thus we experience the essence of Christianity, what Paul calls Charity in the KJV: two of our world’s lowliest and most loathsome creatures exhibiting unmatched heroism, quiet dignity and self-sacrifice while expecting no worldly reward (that is absolutely true for Charlotte if not Templeton) or recognition. I submit that thusly turning the world upside down is a uniquely Christian innovation. If you disagree, you might read Neitzsche’s The Antichrist. He thought so, and thus his eloquent condemnations of Christianity ironically are perhaps its most persuasive compliments, albeit in a backhanded way.

          If there is such thing as “feeling the spirit”, it happens for me at such times as reading Charlotte’s Web to my children and bursting into tears. For it is at those times that I feel human beings are capable of more than nature’s call to the hunt, the bloodletting, will to triumph and to power, and drive to satisfaction of desires.
          I missed this thread until just now. Great post.
          “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
          ― W.H. Auden


          "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
          -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


          "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
          --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

          Comment

          • LA Ute
            Receiver of Memory
            • Nov 2008
            • 19512

            #6
            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
            Of course you all know my high regard for the Bible, especially the KJV and particularly Old Testament, as an unsurpassed literary artifact, despite my undbelief in its literalness. Yes, it can give me chills, or make me cry.
            Have you read this book?

            In the Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible and How It Changed a Nation, a Language, and a Culture [Paperback]

            You can find it on Amazon. It was first published in 1992, and seems to have been written without much editing (the author repeats himself from time to time) but I found it very informative.

            Speaking of irony, dramatic irony is one of the most common types found in the Old Testament.
            Last edited by LA Ute; 07-06-2012, 09:32 PM.
            “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
            ― W.H. Auden


            "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
            -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


            "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
            --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

            Comment

            • SeattleUte
              Faith crisis consultant
              • Nov 2008
              • 20837

              #7
              Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
              Today I saw an original Gutenberg bible; one of only three in existence that were printed on vellum (which is best for long-term preservation - it is in superb condition). It almost brought me to tears.
              Where did you see it? There's one on permanent display in the Library of Congress. I've gazed at it in awe many times.
              When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

              --Jonathan Swift

              Comment

              • SeattleUte
                Faith crisis consultant
                • Nov 2008
                • 20837

                #8
                Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                Have you read this book?

                In the Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible and How It Changed a Nation, a Language, and a Culture [Paperback]

                You can find it on Amazon. It was first published in 1992, and seems to have been written without much editing (the author repeats himself from time to time) but I found it very informative.

                Speaking of irony, dramatic irony is one of the most common types found in the Old Testament.
                Yes, I am aware of "In the Beginning". Actually, I think it was first published in 2002.

                Below is a post I did on CG regarding Harold Bloom, Biblical Translation, the Greeks and Christianity that no one rightly appreciated. It's fascinating to me that Bloom has held forth on how, as a Jew, Christianity is totally alien to him, a Greek concoction, yet, as a literary critic, he grudgingly admits that the King James Version, though fast and loose with accurately rendering the Hebrew Bible, is the greatest translation of all, as well as the most influential book in the English language.

                The linked article by Harold Bloom reviewing Robert Alter's new translation of the Psalms is simply marvelous. In the latter part of the article he lays excerpts of Alter's work and the KJV/Tyndale translation side by side and compares them critically. He notes that Alter has done a masterful, unprecedented job of capturing the language, tone, spirit, and meaning of the original Hebrew. But he declares Alter's effort a "honorable defeat," because he falls short of matching the genius of the English Rennaisance translations' artistry, though Alter's rendering is demonstrably more accurate.

                Here are a some of the most interesting passages from Bloom's article:

                "Though ascribed to King David, whose historical existence is as uncertain as that of his supposed descendant Jesus, the Psalms are no more David's than the Song of Songs is Solomon's or the Five Books are by Moses. There is not much in the Bible, whether Hebrew or Christian, that can withstand historical skepticism. The Exodus is as mythical as the Creation or the Crucifixion. In the United States at this time, religion is politicized, and no one running for office dares to be other than outwardly pious. In this respect the abyss between the United States and Western Europe (barring Ireland) is now absolute."

                "Theologically, Tyndale and his progeny were Calvinists, and Yahweh is not a Presbyterian. Though Alter's audacity in aesthetically challenging Tyndale, the Geneva Bible, and the King James version is admirable, it leads to a kind of honorable defeat. But how refreshing it is to read the Psalms in their abrupt rhythms, cleared of irrelevant Protestant "salvation history." There is no Jewish theology before the Hellenistic Philo of Alexandria (20 BCE–50 CE). Theology, a Greek idea and term, is alien to the Hebrew Bible. When I encounter discussions of "the theology of the Old Testament" I wander off, but Alter holds me to his darkly economical texts."

                "I am more than sympathetic to the unspoken aspect of Alter's quest: How are America's Jews to take back what should be their own?

                "Alter, a critic of great sophistication, does not allow himself to express any uneasiness with the Christian appropriation of the Bible. I prefer to be rougher about this two-thousand-year-old theft. The Old Testament is a captive work dragged along in the triumphal wake of Christianity. Tanakh, the Jewish Bible, is the Original Testament; the New Testament actually is the Belated Testament. I wince when my Jewish students speak of the Old Testament. Yet, there are perhaps 13 million self-identified Jews now alive, and (I believe) some 1.6 billion ostensible Christians. The arithmetic is beyond me, but if God is with the big battalions, then he would seem to have forsaken his People of the Book. All honor yet again to Alter for his ambition in giving us back the Book.

                Yet in literary terms, Alter's contest in this translation is even more difficult."
                1. Biblical style in English carries on it the palpable impress of the Protestant martyr William Tyndale (1494–1536). Strangled and then burned, with the


                The King James Version is the one I read. Who cares about "accuracy".
                When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                --Jonathan Swift

                Comment

                • SeattleUte
                  Faith crisis consultant
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 20837

                  #9
                  Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                  Speaking of irony, dramatic irony is one of the most common types found in the Old Testament.
                  Here is Harold Bloom on dramatic irony in Jonah, which I was surprised to learn is his favorite book in the Old Testament.

                  It may seem frivolous to speak of a favorite book in the Bible but mine is Jonah, by far. A sly masterpiece of four brief chapters, Jonah reverberates in Herman Melville's *Moby-Dick,*, where it is the text for Father Mapple's grand sermon. Tucked away in the Book of the Twelve, with such fierce prophets as Amos and Micah, Jonah is out of place. It should be with the Writings—Song of Songs, Job, Koheleth—because it too is a literary sublimity, almost the archetypal parable masking as short story.
                  When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                  --Jonathan Swift

                  Comment

                  • LA Ute
                    Receiver of Memory
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 19512

                    #10
                    Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                    Yes, I am aware of "In the Beginning". Actually, I think it was first published in 2002.

                    Below is a post I did on CG regarding Harold Bloom, Biblical Translation, the Greeks and Christianity that no one rightly appreciated. It's fascinating to me that Bloom has held forth on how, as a Jew, Christianity is totally alien to him, a Greek concoction, yet, as a literary critic, he grudgingly admits that the King James Version, though fast and loose with accurately rendering the Hebrew Bible, is the greatest translation of all, as well as the most influential book in the English language.

                    The linked article by Harold Bloom reviewing Robert Alter's new translation of the Psalms is simply marvelous. In the latter part of the article he lays excerpts of Alter's work and the KJV/Tyndale translation side by side and compares them critically. He notes that Alter has done a masterful, unprecedented job of capturing the language, tone, spirit, and meaning of the original Hebrew. But he declares Alter's effort a "honorable defeat," because he falls short of matching the genius of the English Rennaisance translations' artistry, though Alter's rendering is demonstrably more accurate.

                    Here are a some of the most interesting passages from Bloom's article:



                    1. Biblical style in English carries on it the palpable impress of the Protestant martyr William Tyndale (1494–1536). Strangled and then burned, with the


                    The King James Version is the one I read. Who cares about "accuracy".
                    I love the KJV too. In college I took a course called "The Bible As Literature." It was a great experience. I remember the prof saying that for several hundred years up to that point (this was in 1976) it was thought that to be a truly educated Western person, one had to have a good knowledge of the Bible. He said then that that view was changing. I think it has changed even more since then.
                    Last edited by LA Ute; 07-06-2012, 11:23 PM.
                    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                    ― W.H. Auden


                    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                    Comment

                    • SeattleUte
                      Faith crisis consultant
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 20837

                      #11
                      Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                      I love the KJV too. In college I took a course called "The Bible As Literature." It was a great experience. I remember the prof saying that for several hundred years up to that point (this was in 1976) it was thought that to be a truly educated Western person, one had to have a good knowledge of the Bible. He said then that that view was changing. I think it has changed even more since then.
                      That has not changed. The populace's increasing rejection of the Bible as a history book hasn't changed the fact that our secular literary canon and our values are shot through with its influence. A truly educated Western person must have a good knowledge of the Bible as much as Homer or Socrates or Shakespeare.
                      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                      --Jonathan Swift

                      Comment

                      • Jeff Lebowski
                        Corporate lackey for Jesus
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 69551

                        #12
                        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                        Where did you see it? There's one on permanent display in the Library of Congress. I've gazed at it in awe many times.
                        Yes. Library of Congress.
                        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                        Comment

                        • SeattleUte
                          Faith crisis consultant
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 20837

                          #13
                          LA, this is actually the book I was thinking of.

                          [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060838736/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d3_g14_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER &pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=1ASCWN26P4SBW3QNKZ6V&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p =470939291&pf_rd_i=507846"]Amazon.com: God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible (P.S.) (9780060838737): Adam Nicolson: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512ikcGPV3L.@@AMEPARAM@@512ikcGPV3L[/ame]
                          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                          --Jonathan Swift

                          Comment

                          • Green Monstah
                            Royal Rooter
                            • Aug 2010
                            • 13929

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                            Today I saw an original Gutenberg bible; one of only three in existence that were printed on vellum (which is best for long-term preservation - it is in superb condition). It almost brought me to tears.
                            Awesome. Is it in DC?
                            Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                            "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

                            Comment

                            • LA Ute
                              Receiver of Memory
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 19512

                              #15
                              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                              Thanks. This is a better depiction of the other book:

                              [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Changed-Nation-Language-Culture/dp/0385722168"]Amazon.com: In the Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible and How It Changed a Nation, a Language, and a Culture (9780385722162): Alister McGrath: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S02EQGVKL.@@AMEPARAM@@51S02EQGVKL[/ame]
                              “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                              ― W.H. Auden


                              "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                              -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                              "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                              --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                              Comment

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