woot goes to Utah!

[woot]

I spent the last week in Utah, and figured I'd offer some various observations. Foyer because some of them are religious in nature.

The new natural history museum in SLC is world class. I highly recommend it. The one at Thanksgiving Point is also really good -- their "hands on" stuff was perhaps the best I've seen. The one in Provo is also decent, although it's a shame that it's separate from BYU's "natural history" museum, which isn't about natural history at all and even includes a line about all the animals being put on earth for the benefit of man, a position I view as pernicious (and obviously false).

I mentioned the Leonardo Museum in another thread, but it deserves some love. Some of the activities are clearly directed toward kids, and they currently have two mediocre art installations that consume the vast majority of the exhibit space, but the stop-motion animation studio is really fun, and there's an ongoing genetic study on-site in which they are studying the correlation between a couple alleles and one's ability to multitask (and one's smoking status, since the allele in question also seems to affect one's nicotine sensitivity). Spit in a cup and take the test! Their civil rights photography exhibit is also really good; it certainly throws the church's continuing racial struggles into relief.

We also visited the temple square visitors' centers, the tabernacle, and watched the movie in the Legacy theater. I found the film to be counterproductive to the church's goals. It really emphasizes Joseph's devastation at the loss of Alvin and his fears that Alvin was forever damned, having not been baptized. It then comes across as way too convenient when it is "revealed" that baptism isn't necessary in this life, that families are forever, etc. I doubt the director meant for that connection to seem so obvious. It was also funny how many times they were able to get the token black couple on the screen without actually telling us anything about them. To no one's surprise, its version of history is completely whitewashed, with the mob being portrayed as pure evil, and the Mormons completely innocent. None of Joseph's swindling, swinging, treasure digging, emptying a 6-shooter before being killed, etc. And Brigham looked a bit like Fabio.

I hadn't been back in a long time, so getting up into the mountains was probably the highlight of the trip.

Oh, and Cafe Rio is a lot better than I remember. The phenomenon doesn't seem quite as laughable now.

[Donuthole]

Oh, and Cafe Rio is a lot better than I remember. The phenomenon doesn't seem quite as laughable now.

Boom, bitches!

[woot]

Oh and I saw 4 or 5 U of U football coaches (I only recognized BJ) in the SLC airport, and I saw Andy Reid in PHX.

The flight back was by far the most harrowing I've experienced. The tornadoes were going on, and while they didn't get that far north, they caused some crazy wind. We all clapped when the pilot got the thing landed.

[taekwondave]

I spent the last week in Utah, and figured I'd offer some various observations. Foyer because some of them are religious in nature.

The new natural history museum in SLC is world class. I highly recommend it. The one at Thanksgiving Point is also really good -- their "hands on" stuff was perhaps the best I've seen. The one in Provo is also decent, although it's a shame that it's separate from BYU's "natural history" museum, which isn't about natural history at all and even includes a line about all the animals being put on earth for the benefit of man, a position I view as pernicious (and obviously false).

I mentioned the Leonardo Museum in another thread, but it deserves some love. Some of the activities are clearly directed toward kids, and they currently have two mediocre art installations that consume the vast majority of the exhibit space, but the stop-motion animation studio is really fun, and there's an ongoing genetic study on-site in which they are studying the correlation between a couple alleles and one's ability to multitask (and one's smoking status, since the allele in question also seems to affect one's nicotine sensitivity). Spit in a cup and take the test! Their civil rights photography exhibit is also really good; it certainly throws the church's continuing racial struggles into relief.

We also visited the temple square visitors' centers, the tabernacle, and watched the movie in the Legacy theater. I found the film to be counterproductive to the church's goals. It really emphasizes Joseph's devastation at the loss of Alvin and his fears that Alvin was forever damned, having not been baptized. It then comes across as way too convenient when it is "revealed" that baptism isn't necessary in this life, that families are forever, etc. I doubt the director meant for that connection to seem so obvious. It was also funny how many times they were able to get the token black couple on the screen without actually telling us anything about them. To no one's surprise, its version of history is completely whitewashed, with the mob being portrayed as pure evil, and the Mormons completely innocent. None of Joseph's swindling, swinging, treasure digging, emptying a 6-shooter before being killed, etc. And Brigham looked a bit like Fabio.

I hadn't been back in a long time, so getting up into the mountains was probably the highlight of the trip.

Oh, and Cafe Rio is a lot better than I remember. The phenomenon doesn't seem quite as laughable now.

Do you have a link for that? I haven't read that before. He was strapped in a jail cell? Who locks a guy up and lets him keep a gun? This would make an interesting read, if true.

[woot]

Do you have a link for that? I haven't read that before. He was strapped in a jail cell? Who locks a guy up and lets him keep a gun? This would make an interesting read, if true.

I forget where I learned about that, but Wikipedia has the following:

Joseph Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock had given him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day.[17] Three of the six barrels misfired,[18] but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers.[19]

There have been conflicting reports about to what extent members of the mob were injured during the attack, and whether any of them were killed. Shortly after the events occurred, John Taylor wrote that he had heard that two of the attackers that Joseph Smith had shot with his pistol had died.[2]

Most accounts seem to agree that at least three mob members were wounded by Joseph’s gunfire, but there is no other evidence that any of them died as a result of the attack. John Wills was shot in the arm; William Voras was shot in the shoulder; and William Gallaher was shot in the face.[19][25] Others claimed that a fourth unnamed man was also wounded.[26] Wills, Voras, Gallaher, and a Mr. Allen (possibly the fourth man) were all indicted for the murder of Joseph and Hyrum. Wills, Voras, and Gallaher, perhaps conscious that their wounds could prove that they were involved in the mob, fled the county after being indicted and were never brought to trial.[27] There is no evidence that Wills, Voras, Gallaher, or Allen died from their wounds.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith"]Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[woot]

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/carthage-jail-smith.htm

That site has a more thorough account. Interesting stuff.

[Maximus]

How does the fact that he tried to defend himself change anything? Further, how do any of those facts justify the persecution?

[woot]

How does the fact that he tried to defend himself change anything? Further, how do any of those facts justify the persecution?

I would argue that "persecution" is the wrong word to use. Mormons are taught that Joseph was killed because of his testimony because it's important that he be considered a martyr. There is reason to believe that his death, as the "persecution" in Ohio and Missouri, was motivated by actions of a non-religious nature.

Of course none of that justifies killing him, but it's clear that the church is continuing their fight to preserve the idea that he gave himself willingly in order to seal his testimony with his blood. This is clearly not the case, and there is plenty of reason to think that his death had only a tangential relationship to his testimony at all.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I would argue that "persecution" is the wrong word to use. Mormons are taught that Joseph was killed because of his testimony because it's important that he be considered a martyr. There is reason to believe that his death, as the "persecution" in Ohio and Missouri, was motivated by actions of a non-religious nature.

Of course none of that justifies killing him, but it's clear that the church is continuing their fight to preserve the idea that he gave himself willingly in order to seal his testimony with his blood. This is clearly not the case, and there is plenty of reason to think that his death had only a tangential relationship to his testimony at all.

Straw man alert. I don't think that is nearly as big a deal as you imply.

We did the Carthage tour a few years ago. They discussed the shooting down the stairs with the smuggled pistol. I remember learning that as a kid.

[Sullyute]

We did the Carthage tour a few years ago. They discussed the shooting down the stairs with the smuggled pistol. I remember learning that as a kid.

Truman Madsen also talked about it in his famous "Joseph Smith - the Prophet" tapes that practically every missionary listens to.

[woot]

Straw man alert. I don't think that is nearly as big a deal as you imply.

We did the Carthage tour a few years ago. They discussed the shooting down the stairs with the smuggled pistol. I remember learning that as a kid.

Oh I agree that the church seems to own some of the real history when it comes to museums and whatnot; it's just that it never showed up in official portrayals of the events (books, movies, manuals).

I get that it's important to avoid telling both sides when you're just trying to evoke an emotional response. I don't think that the church allows much opportunity to learn any of the actual history, however. I didn't know any of that stuff until my mission or later. I certainly have never seen any of the leadership admit that the motivations of the mob weren't religious in nature.

I bet there are many here who would want to kill him as much as the mob did if they were targets of his abuses.

[Omaha 680]

If the Church is trying to hide that Joseph had a gun at Carthage Jail, they should probably stop displaying the gun at the Church History museum in Salt Lake City.

[The Fourth Nephite]

I went to a fireside about Hyrum Smith last night. They described JS shooting 3 attackers and didn't gloss over it at all. What's the big deal?

Also, Joseph made 5 statements as he traveled to Carthage that he would be killed. He knew.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I think people would be more upset about Joseph Smith and company sharing a bottle of wine at the time than they are at the thought of him firing the pistol.

[Commando]

I bet there are many here who would want to kill him as much as the mob did if they were targets of his abuses.