Randy Bott and the Priesthood Ban

[LA Ute]

I thought we were.

OK.

[CardiacCoug]

I think this is his most complete public statement on the subject:

[YOUTUBE]Pcw0woPX5VY&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YOUTUBE]

Yeah that's probably what I was thinking of -- very interesting the way he approached that question. He is careful not to say anything directly critical of the ban or the Church -- at the same time making it pretty clear to anybody reading between the lines that he and his family disagreed with it.

Poor Tim Russert -- dying young sucks.

[DU Ute]

The ABC show What Would You Do? is on right now and the whole show was filmed in Salt Lake. If you haven't seen it, it's a horribe show where they secretly film people's public reactions to outrageous situations. They said later in the show there will be a segment on people's reaction to a girl with a black boyfriend.

[TexTechCoug]

I've recently had the thought that policy/doctrine on the priesthood ban wasn't changed by God sooner not because Blacks weren't ready but because both the members and leadership of the Church wasn't ready. Sometimes God can't reveal truth to those who are unprepared to accept it. It sure is easier to swallow that due to racist tendencies of many members and leaders it took God some time to change their hearts and implement His policy, rather than condemn an entire race.

[Uncle Ted]

I think this is his most complete public statement on the subject:

[YOUTUBE]Pcw0woPX5VY&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YOUTUBE]

I think I posted this before but George W. Romney was a strong supporter for civil rights even after getting the following letter from Delbert Stapley on church letterhead...

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/24/delbert_stapley.pdf

[DU Ute]

The ABC show What Would You Do? is on right now and the whole show was filmed in Salt Lake. If you haven't seen it, it's a horribe show where they secretly film people's public reactions to outrageous situations. They said later in the show there will be a segment on people's reaction to a girl with a black boyfriend.

They filmed the black boyfriend segment at a diner in Brigham City. They found a few pretty racist people. I'm sure you could find that in most small towns. At least they didn't say anything about being LDS.

[SteelBlue]

I think I posted this before but George W. Romney was a strong supporter for civil rights even after getting the following letter from Delbert Stapley on church letterhead...

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/24/delbert_stapley.pdf

This letter was a big topic of discussion back in the CG days. Reading it tonight I was struck by how similar it reads to current opinions re opposition to gay marriage.

[CardiacCoug]

I've recently had the thought that policy/doctrine on the priesthood ban wasn't changed by God sooner not because Blacks weren't ready but because both the members and leadership of the Church wasn't ready. Sometimes God can't reveal truth to those who are unprepared to accept it. It sure is easier to swallow that due to racist tendencies of many members and leaders it took God some time to change their hearts and implement His policy, rather than condemn an entire race.

How about just saying the ban was never God's will to begin with? That seems to make a lot more sense. You're not thinking God changed His mind on this issue, right?

[TripletDaddy]

Wow. The saints issue an apology!

It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again.

Unfortunately, it was the New Orleans Saints issuing the apology. But at least it is a start.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/gregg-williams-apologizes-role-bounties-15837865#.T1GdDXnpjTo

[pellegrino]

How about just saying the ban was never God's will to begin with? That seems to make a lot more sense. You're not thinking God changed His mind on this issue, right?

This is how I envision it. Pardon the poor attempt at humor. I don't intend it as sacrilege, nor to mock. It's just the way my twisted mind works and allows me to process things.


Joseph Smith founds the church, all are free and equal before God (just like in the BoM).

God, in his throne near Kolob says to himself "Good, this is the way it's supposed to be. Equal access to everyone. They'll figure out the women thing shortly."

Joseph dies, Brigham moves everyone to Utah, along with some slaveholders who become prominent members and leaders. To avoid conflict and maintain his power with those members, Brigham declares that blacks can't hold the priesthood and that miscegenation is punishable by death.

God, in his throne near Kolob says to himself "Well, that was a boneheaded move. I guess we'll have to go about this the hard way. If only I hadn't given them agency . . . well, that ship sailed. I guess there's not too much harm done, given that the rest of the world is so backwards on this and will be for a while. It's a shame they couldn't have just stayed on the path Joseph put them on. They'll get back to me soon enough on this matter. Let's just hope it goes the way of the Adam/God theory, right Michael?"

Joseph F. Smith and the quorum revisit the matter but are unable to come to a definite conclusion and basically table the issue, leaving BY's decree as doctrine.

God, in his throne near Kolob says to himself "Hmmm, not exactly how I would have played it, but then again Brigham Jr. was still in that crowd. Looks like we're in for the long haul with this one, at least another generation."

David O. McKay, sensing that it was wrong and that major societal changes were on the horizon, puts it to the 12 and is shut down, in the aftermath he feels that he can't get a definitive answer about what to do.

God, in his throne near Kolob says to himself "I still can't get over the fact that he actually asked me what to do about Ralph Bunche and the Hotel Utah. David, this is going to be one of the most difficult things yall will face over the next fifty years and frankly, you don't have the right people around you to do get it done without causing an uproar among the faithful rank and file.l Get some new blood in there and then I'll think about bailing y'all out."

Spencer W. Kimball, fed up with his colleagues' unwillingness to change it asks God to step in and give them a revelation.

God, in his throne near Kolob says to himself "If that's what it takes then that's what it takes. Spencer, getter done, but don't you dare blame this on me!"

I think it's fair and safe to say that after generations of believing it was doctrine from God and coming up with crap to support the error, there were a large number of Mormons who would not have been ready for it any earlier than when it happened. By then, most people had gotten used to the idea of an integrated society and so it didn't seem so radical, but then again, that's because it (racial integration) wasn't all that radical.

[cowboy]

Not that anyone cares, but here are my thoughts. First, I appreciate SoCal and Rambam making the point that good people can have reprehensible ideas/philosophies that stem from the generation they were raised. That’s a pretty important point, in my mind, when considering the comments of 67 year old white guy that’s never really left Utah. Second, I’m hopeful along with DDD and JL that this will be a catalyst for both our church and our culture to deal with our racist history and the false notions that resulted from it. Finally, while it’s easy to ride the moral high horse and rage against the machine about what should be done, I still believe that that First Presidency and the Qo12 are made up of good men who want to do the right thing, and who are in an incredibly difficult position.

If you no longer (or never did) believe the First Presidency are called of God then stop here, otherwise, hear me out as you put yourself in their shoes for a moment. They recognize that discrimination based on race is wrong, but they also firmly believe that the past presidents of the church were all prophets of God. From this context they look back on the priesthood ban and try to understand it. Specifically, they ask three questions:

1) Was the ban inspired? This seems like a silly question to most, with the obvious answer of ‘NO,’ but since they believe the Pearl of Great Price is real, they realize that a priesthood ban based on lineage isn’t entirely unprecedented for God. They’re therefore left without an answer as to how the ban came to be, whether it was the sole creation of a bigoted Brigham, or if it was really divinely directed.

2) When was any revelation given to Brigham Young to withhold priesthood privileges from anyone? Young doesn’t seem to have recorded such an event anywhere, so the answer is really unknown.

3) Why would God allow this ban, regardless of its origin? Remember, we’re in the First Presidency’s shoes, and they believe all the past presidents were prophets (as do I), so they’re default position is to assume that God at least gave permission for the ban even if it wasn’t His idea. Just as no revelation was recorded to put the ban in place, none was recorded giving a reason for it remaining.

So, when presented with questions about the ban, the First Presidency tells the truth. They don’t know how it came to be, whether it was a divine commandment or a stupid mistake; they don’t know exactly when it was instituted; and they have not been given any revelation as to why so many of God’s prophets allowed it to continue. Maybe they suspect it was all a big boneheaded mistake, but telling people that a prophet was wrong is kind of a big deal, something that requires more than just pontification, and definitely needs to be confirmed with God. Maybe they haven’t received that confirmation because they haven’t asked, hoping the issue would go away and they wouldn’t have to deal with the difficult times that would follow any answer.

Maybe this will make them ask those difficult questions, and hopefully the answer they get is “Well, Brigham Young was literally the only person on the continent who could lead an exodus across the plains and lay the foundations of a church and a culture that would last for generations. Unfortunately, he was also a thick-skulled bigot – hey, I had to work with what I had- and the ‘good enough for Brigham is good enough for me’ attitude prevailed among successive leaders until I was finally able to get through to them. Now get out there and apologize.” Regardless, I’m all in. I’ve always believed we are led by a prophet, and I guess I always will, even if sometimes I’m left scratching my head.

[pellegrino]

Not that anyone cares, but here are my thoughts. First, I appreciate SoCal and Rambam making the point that good people can have reprehensible ideas/philosophies that stem from the generation they were raised. That’s a pretty important point, in my mind, when considering the comments of 67 year old white guy that’s never really left Utah. Second, I’m hopeful along with DDD and JL that this will be a catalyst for both our church and our culture to deal with our racist history and the false notions that resulted from it. Finally, while it’s easy to ride the moral high horse and rage against the machine about what should be done, I still believe that that First Presidency and the Qo12 are made up of good men who want to do the right thing, and who are in an incredibly difficult position.

If you no longer (or never did) believe the First Presidency are called of God then stop here, otherwise, hear me out as you put yourself in their shoes for a moment. They recognize that discrimination based on race is wrong, but they also firmly believe that the past presidents of the church were all prophets of God. From this context they look back on the priesthood ban and try to understand it. Specifically, they ask three questions:

1) Was the ban inspired? This seems like a silly question to most, with the obvious answer of ‘NO,’ but since they believe the Pearl of Great Price is real, they realize that a priesthood ban based on lineage isn’t entirely unprecedented for God. They’re therefore left without an answer as to how the ban came to be, whether it was the sole creation of a bigoted Brigham, or if it was really divinely directed.

2) When was any revelation given to Brigham Young to withhold priesthood privileges from anyone? Young doesn’t seem to have recorded such an event anywhere, so the answer is really unknown.

3) Why would God allow this ban, regardless of its origin? Remember, we’re in the First Presidency’s shoes, and they believe all the past presidents were prophets (as do I), so they’re default position is to assume that God at least gave permission for the ban even if it wasn’t His idea. Just as no revelation was recorded to put the ban in place, none was recorded giving a reason for it remaining.

So, when presented with questions about the ban, the First Presidency tells the truth. They don’t know how it came to be, whether it was a divine commandment or a stupid mistake; they don’t know exactly when it was instituted; and they have not been given any revelation as to why so many of God’s prophets allowed it to continue. Maybe they suspect it was all a big boneheaded mistake, but telling people that a prophet was wrong is kind of a big deal, something that requires more than just pontification, and definitely needs to be confirmed with God. Maybe they haven’t received that confirmation because they haven’t asked, hoping the issue would go away and they wouldn’t have to deal with the difficult times that would follow any answer.

Maybe this will make them ask those difficult questions, and hopefully the answer they get is “Well, Brigham Young was literally the only person on the continent who could lead an exodus across the plains and lay the foundations of a church and a culture that would last for generations. Unfortunately, he was also a thick-skulled bigot – hey, I had to work with what I had- and the ‘good enough for Brigham is good enough for me’ attitude prevailed among successive leaders until I was finally able to get through to them. Now get out there and apologize.” Regardless, I’m all in. I’ve always believed we are led by a prophet, and I guess I always will, even if sometimes I’m left scratching my head.

I care

[myboynoah]

Do you honestly think that anyone outside of this forum cares a whit about the Mormon Church's priesthood ban? If Romney is asked about it, he will shrug, and no one will care.

Agreed. Is there an ongoing conversation going on out there about this? If so, where? I can see it being a topic of conversation in Utah or other Mormon areas and forums, but what about elsewhere? I haven't seen anything in the national media. This is not to say that what Bott said doesn't pose a problem, but The Church quickly repudiated his comments. I don't think the outside world much cares about doctrine vs. policy or even an apology. Changing course so dramatically was pretty much an admission of error.

[Omaha 680]

I care

[Clark Addison]

I care

I always care what Cowboy has to say.