Randy Bott and the Priesthood Ban

[Flystripper]

I think it is more like the parent not admitting they have the car, for fear the kid might get in an accident.

kid: "Dad, can I borrow the car tonight?"
dad: "What's a car?"

well done

[SeattleUte]

I'm sorry, but you can't be serious. At "any university except BYU," a professor would be fired the very day he says something that may potentially be embarrassing to his university, or something with which his university's leadership may disagree? Aren't you the one that's always whining about the lack of academic freedom in the Church and at BYU? And now you're the one who's arguing that a professor shouldn't even have the freedom to express his own opinion in the media without being fired?

Clearly the above argument does not suggest that I agree in any way with anything that Bott said. But to suggest that in any other context at any other university, a tenured professor (I'm assuming Bott is tenured, I've seen nothing to indicate he isn't) would be fired the very day he said something potentially embarrassing to his university is just asinine.

Also, as I previously posted, this type of racist talk is not a part of the mission of any respectable universiy, i.e., academia or scholarship. Being a research professor at a university is a discipline, a profession. Repeating racist middle ages lore as fact and as holy writ is not deserving of the protection of academic freedom.

[Indy Coug]

I don't want to remain silent, but I'm having trouble thinking of a way to speak out. I donate every year to BYU but I don't want to withhold my donation since I make it directly to the accounting department (which I hold blameless in this mess). I guess I could withhold tithing money but I don't want to do that either as I think full membership in the church for me is more important than leaving (I can make a bigger difference in than out and frankly I love being Mormon). I can't write to church leaders because they'll just send the letter back to my bishop/SP, both of whom have no power in this matter.

My only viable option is to write to BYU, but what do I demand? What do I say? What power do I have? I can't withhold anything from them.

I would take a deep breath, take a couple steps back and let it play out for awhile first. If after a few weeks it appears nothing more has substantively changed then consider your possible response. It may be by that time things have resolved themselves to some level of satisfaction by then.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I think someone else may have said this, but it is kinda like leadership not wanting to give the membership keys to dad's car for fear that they might get into an accident...

The Bible is full of examples of prophets/apostles "kicking against the pricks." Moses, Jeremiah, Peter, etc. Yet the Jews don't seem to have a problem believing in their portion of the Bible and Christians still adhere to the New Testament.

Why do we get this stubbornness from our leaders now? At last maybe I am understanding Elder Oaks' point about "following your leader even when you know they're wrong." Maybe that's the only way these guys will ever admit that decisions from the leadership in the past were wrong. It appears as if they're afraid of losing control over the membership. I don't think it's particularly because they enjoy the control, they just believe that a testimony in the church is the ticket to happiness, salvation and exaltation.

I don't agree with the approach, at all. I just don't think repudiating this would cause the chaos they think it would cause. I wasn't even aware that there had been a ban until I was a teenager. My dad was very clear with me that the only possible explanation for the ban was racism. It didn't come from God, it came from men in leadership positions that held racist beliefs.

My personal belief is that it lasted as long as it did because of a combination of rigid adherence to some concept of stare decisis that the Q of the 12 feels and bigotry. It's impossible to explain away the words and actions of men like Lee and Petersen. That wasn't merely adherence to past decisions made by the Q of the 12, that was bigotry. I'm inclined to give BRM more credit because of his strong endorsement of the 1978 pronouncement and telling us to forget everything we've believed about the topic. He strikes me more as a stare decisis guy (I'm sure many will strongly disagree with this).

[Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Firing a professor for saying racist things is not an infringement on academic freedom. You're confused. "Acadamic freedom" doesn't mean a professor can say whatever vile thing he wants that hurts students and embarrasses the university. No doubt universities retain the reight to fire for this very type of thing in contracts and employee handbooks.

Academic freedom, freedom of speech, etc. in most settings connotes responsiblity and accountability as much as liberty.

In fact, professors resign under pressure or are fired all the time over these kinds of flaps. See my google search.

http://www.google.com/#pq=racist+uni...2&bih=626&bs=1

I understand your point, but I think this situation is different from some professor spouting racist epithets. Bott was asked his opinion on the reasons for the priesthood ban, and given his position as a professor of religious studies at an LDS university, that's something that at least theoretically falls within his "academic" purview (and yes, I use the term "academic" very loosely here). The fact that you or I or anybody else doesn't like his answer or thinks it's racist doesn't change the fact that, as has been brought up multiple times in this thread, his answer is actually based on historical statements by various Church leaders.

I'm not even necessarily saying I think it would be unwise for BYU to fire Bott, but I also don't think it's as clear-cut as you would like to think it is that someone in an analogous scenario at a different university would have already been fired.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I can't remember if this has been commented on earlier in the thread, but the above statement deserves a ton of ridicule. We know quite well why, how, and when the restriction began. I give the church credit for the statement about condemning racism both in and outside the church, but they are still being disingenuous.

We had a fairly thorough discussion of that. You might want to check it out.

[Northwestcoug]

We had a fairly thorough discussion of that. You might want to check it out.

You're right. But after 15 pages of comments, I forgot just how much it had been discussed.

[LA Ute]

"Sugar Trade" is a relatively obscure James Taylor song which I think is beautiful and which I've always found haunting. I've been thinking about it a lot over the last few days.

[YOUTUBE]v3miBzGJ6SI&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YOUTUBE]

[Moliere]

I would take a deep breath, take a couple steps back and let it play out for awhile first. If after a few weeks it appears nothing more has substantively changed then consider your possible response. It may be by that time things have resolved themselves to some level of satisfaction by then.

I've drafted the letter to Cecil.

As an alumnus of BYU (two degrees) I'm offended by the recent remarks by Professor Bott as reported in the Washington Post. This was not an isolated incident by him as evidenced by similar remarks that remained on his internet blog for years and similar teachings that several students have confirmed to have been taught in his classes for over a decade.

While I believe Professor Bott has a right to state his opinion, I also believe that BYU has a responsibility to its faculty, students, and alumni to maintain its integrity. Therefore, I'm more offended by the inaction of the BYU administration in rectifying this situation. As every day passes without action against Professor Bott, my alma mater continues to get dragged through press as a racist and intolerant university. While I know the church and BYU verbally hold that "all are alike unto God" (2 Ne 26:33), the inaction against Professor Bott does not square with this position.

Regardless of the number of press releases that are issued, it's only through suspension or termination of Professor Bott that the media, the masses and ultimately the members of the church will understand that the church truly is against all forms of racism.

Moliere

I made sure to put my degrees below my name so he knows I'm not an English major

I'll hold off for another day before sending it, or maybe I'll send it on Sunday night so he gets it Monday morning.

[Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Also, as I previously posted, this type of racist talk is not a part of the mission of any respectable universiy, i.e., academia or scholarship. Being a research professor at a university is a discipline, a profession. Repeating racist middle ages lore as fact and as holy writ is not deserving of the protection of academic freedom.

Nobody here is denying that BYU is fundamentally different from almost any other university. Given that fact, why are you so worried about comparing how BYU does things to how most other universities do things? Saying "BYU should fire Randy Bott because it's the right thing to do" is one thing, but saying "BYU should fire Randy Bott because it's what any other university would do" is a complete non sequitur.

[SeattleUte]

Nobody here is denying that BYU is fundamentally different from almost any other university. Given that fact, why are you so worried about comparing how BYU does things to how most other universities do things? Saying "BYU should fire Randy Bott because it's the right thing to do" is one thing, but saying "BYU should fire Randy Bott because it's what any other university would do" is a complete non sequitur.

Actually, my response was more nuanced. All I said is if a professor said something similar most any university would fire him. Imagine a University of Utah professor who was LDS saying precisely those things. He'd be done if not fired that day. In the same post I did recognize Lebowski's point that BYU would be contradictory and unfair in firing him. That is what prompted me to distinguish BYU from other universities. That's not to say I don't think BYU isn't a totally fucked up place.

[Flystripper]

Nobody here is denying that BYU is fundamentally different from almost any other university. Given that fact, why are you so worried about comparing how BYU does things to how most other universities do things? Saying "BYU should fire Randy Bott because it's the right thing to do" is one thing, but saying "BYU should fire Randy Bott because it's what any other university would do" is a complete non sequitur.

SU said that dismissing Bott is what any respectable university would do. I have to agree that the longer BYU fails to act on this, the less respectable they become.

[Moliere]

SU said that dismissing Bott is what any respectable university would do. I have to agree that the longer BYU fails to act on this, the less respectable they become.

You read my letter

[LA Ute]

Actually, my response was more nuanced. All I said is if a professor said something similar most any university would fire him. Imagine a University of Utah professor who was LDS saying precisely those things. He'd be done if not fired that day. In the same post I did recognize Lebowski's point that BYU would be contradictory and unfair in firing him. That is what prompted me to distinguish BYU from other universities.

I think you're underestimating how hard it is to fire a tenured university professor over something he/she says. I don't know if BYU professors have tenure the same way professors at other universities do, however.

[Flystripper]

I think you're underestimating how hard it is to fire a tenured university professor over something he/she says. I don't know if BYU professors have tenure the same way professors at other universities do, however.

To me it does not matter if they fire him, retire him, pay him off to leave quietly, put him on indefinite administrative leave, whatever. BYU needs him out of the classroom and no longer affiliated with the University. I am sure there is a way to accomplish this in an expedient fashion.