Daughters In My Kingdom

[Solon]

Daughters In My Kingdom: The History and Work of the Relief Society is a new publication (2011) about the Relief Society.

http://www.lds.org/relief-society/da...anual?lang=eng

I'm not sure in what capacity this book is intended to be used, but it has some good ideas and some interesting teachings. While there are many points we could discuss, I choose first to introduce some of the book's ideas from Chapter 9 on the nature of motherhood and what it means "to nurture".

All sisters share the responsibility to nurture, or “mother.” Elder M. Russell Ballard . . . taught: “Sisters, we, your brethren, cannot do what you were divinely designated to do from before the foundation of the world. We may try, but we cannot ever hope to replicate your unique gifts. There is nothing in this world as personal, as nurturing, or as life changing as the influence of a righteous woman. … All women have within their divine nature both the inherent talent and the stewardship to mother.”

I find the idea that all women have inherent talent to "mother" or "nurture", but no man does an interesting one. Does "mothering" necessarily = "nurturing"? (and, if so, what is - sex jokes aside - "fathering"?)

Or dues "nurturing" = "homemaking"?

Sister Julie B. Beck taught about the role of nurturing: “To nurture means to cultivate, care for, and make grow. Therefore, mothers [should] create a climate for spiritual and temporal growth in their homes. Another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world.

"Another word for nurturing is homemaking" seems a line especially worthy of discussion.

I'm interested in others' thoughts. Especially CUF's female contingent.

[Moliere]

I find the idea that all women have inherent talent to "mother" or "nurture", but no man does an interesting one. Does "mothering" necessarily = "nurturing"? (and, if so, what is - sex jokes aside - "fathering"?)

Did he really say that "no" man has the inherent talent to nurture, or just that women are better at it than men? Seems like hte latter, and I have no issue with that statement except that I'm not a big fan of absolutes (except when I post ).

It seems that pretty much every species that has evolved into two different genders from a single celled organism has resulted in the creation of gender roles. Why would humans be any different? So taking the absolutes away, I think women as a whole are better at nurturing (or better yet caring for children) than men.

[Solon]

Did he really say that "no" man has the inherent talent to nurture, or just that women are better at it than men? Seems like hte latter, .

I took his statement that "[men] cannot do what [women] were divinely designated to do from before the foundation of the world" as a statement that men can never be mothers.

This is obvious enough from a biological standpoint, but (IMO) Ballard's definition of mothering isn't purely biological, but social. I.e., I took his words to mean that "mothering" means "nurturing", not just giving birth.

By extension, he's saying that men don't nurture. Or, if they do, they don't do it as well as women, who were all born to do it.

I think that's an idea worth unpacking.

[wuapinmon]

Gender is a performance.

[UtahDan]

I think that's an idea worth pancaking.

Agree.

[mUUser]

As a stay-at-home dad of 17 years, I'd find this stuff laughable if it weren't so tragic. My girls run into this all the time in YW. They've learned to keep quiet during these lessons as they've been shut down time and again when they bring up the dynamics of reversed roles.

We have a good sense of humor about it in church circles though. An EFY counselor related this story to me. At EFY one year, the campers were asked to tell something about each of their family members. My daughter said, my mom graduated at the top of her class, has a near perfect memory & is an officer at one of the world's largest companies. And my dad is a housewife and married over his head.

[Surfah]

As a stay-at-home dad of 17 years, I'd find this stuff laughable if it weren't so tragic. My girls run into this all the time in YW. They've learned to keep quiet during these lessons as they've been shut down time and again when they bring up the dynamics of reversed roles.

We have a good sense of humor about it in church circles though. An EFY counselor related this story to me. At EFY one year, the campers were asked to tell something about each of their family members. My daughter said, my mom graduated at the top of her class, has a near perfect memory & is an officer at one of the world's largest companies. And my dad is a housewife and married over his head.

Whoa. 17 years? How did your family arrive at this and what is the dynamic in your home. That is really interesting to me. Has it been difficult for you and your family dealing with the "role reversal" within the Church or your community?

[DrumNFeather]

As a stay-at-home dad of 17 years, I'd find this stuff laughable if it weren't so tragic. My girls run into this all the time in YW. They've learned to keep quiet during these lessons as they've been shut down time and again when they bring up the dynamics of reversed roles.

We have a good sense of humor about it in church circles though. An EFY counselor related this story to me. At EFY one year, the campers were asked to tell something about each of their family members. My daughter said, my mom graduated at the top of her class, has a near perfect memory & is an officer at one of the world's largest companies. And my dad is a housewife and married over his head.

This dovetails from a discussion we had a few weeks ago on here...and I don't think it is limited to the church, although certainly there is more focused attention on the subject in certain church circles. But I think this is 100% a generational thing. Men these days are far more involved in the rearing of their children than they probably have been at any point in recent memory (I have no metric for this, I'm just looking at our generation vs. generations past). Men these days are far more involved...and might I add, expected to be so far more than past generations...and make no mistake, that is a good thing!

Your particular circumstance bucks trends both inside and outside the church and I think it is awesome and a great example.

[Uncle Ted]

As a stay-at-home dad of 17 years, I'd find this stuff laughable if it weren't so tragic. My girls run into this all the time in YW. They've learned to keep quiet during these lessons as they've been shut down time and again when they bring up the dynamics of reversed roles.

We have a good sense of humor about it in church circles though. An EFY counselor related this story to me. At EFY one year, the campers were asked to tell something about each of their family members. My daughter said, my mom graduated at the top of her class, has a near perfect memory & is an officer at one of the world's largest companies. And my dad is a housewife and married over his head.

LOL.

My wife who had a very successful career of her own ran into this a lot. After she had retired from her career she was called as YWP and taught the YW often that they should always consider getting as much education as they can especially before getting married because they will most likely need to use it at one time or another in their lives to support or help support their families. Some of the other YW leaders took offense to her comments and claimed that wasn't what the church leaders have taught.

Ironically, one of these YW leaders that had criticized my wife ended up getting divorced. In fact, she was the most outspoken one. She had no education to fall back on. On top of that her husband, the former EQP, turned out to be a deadbeat and major dork. She ended up being one of the biggest recipients of fast offering funds and service projects in the ward.

[Northwestcoug]

This dovetails from a discussion we had a few weeks ago on here...and I don't think it is limited to the church, although certainly there is more focused attention on the subject in certain church circles. But I think this is 100% a generational thing. Men these days are far more involved in the rearing of their children than they probably have been at any point in recent memory (I have no metric for this, I'm just looking at our generation vs. generations past). Men these days are far more involved...and might I add, expected to be so far more than past generations...and make no mistake, that is a good thing!

Your particular circumstance bucks trends both inside and outside the church and I think it is awesome and a great example.

I wish the trend were being bucked more quickly for my daughters. Last week, my 13 year-old was told to not view housekeeping, changing diapers, etc. as menial tasks, but to find joy in them. Nothing in the lesson talked about career development. When she said she'd like to also balance a career with motherhood, her instructor told her, "That's a little selfish, don't you think?"

This is how I kind of see the "Daughters in my Kingdom" book. It seems to me to put the traditional roles of womanhood on a high pedestal, almost to convince women what the church teaches is a traditional duty is a noble calling. I haven't read all of it yet, but what I've read so far hasn't convinced me that there's 'official' room for women to grow outside of their traditional confines.

[DrumNFeather]

I wish the trend were being bucked more quickly for my daughters. Last week, my 13 year-old was told to not view housekeeping, changing diapers, etc. as menial tasks, but to find joy in them. Nothing in the lesson talked about career development. When she said she'd like to also balance a career with motherhood, her instructor told her, "That's a little selfish, don't you think?"

This is how I kind of see the "Daughters in my Kingdom" book. It seems to me to put the traditional roles of womanhood on a high pedestal, almost to convince women what the church teaches is a traditional duty is a noble calling. I haven't read all of it yet, but what I've read so far hasn't convinced me that there's 'official' room for women to grow outside of their traditional confines.

My daughters are still little so I won't face this for several years...but I am a big believer that you have to put your absolute best people in the ward with the youth...and it sounds to me like this is probably a mix of instructor and material. I don't doubt that some of those "homemaking" things still remain in the materials, but I tell you what, there are an increasing number of women in the church that are successfully showing how to balance work and life without losing much at home. We've had a number of such women in most of the wards I've been in since I've been married and had kids and I think it's awesome.

[Moliere]

My daughters are still little so I won't face this for several years...but I am a big believer that you have to put your absolute best people in the ward with the youth...and it sounds to me like this is probably a mix of instructor and material. I don't doubt that some of those "homemaking" things still remain in the materials, but I tell you what, there are an increasing number of women in the church that are successfully showing how to balance work and life without losing much at home. We've had a number of such women in most of the wards I've been in since I've been married and had kids and I think it's awesome.

This is our ward. We have our typical group of SAHMs but the YWP and RSP are both career people, and unabashedly so. It creates a great and diverse environment for the YW, most of whom want more education and some opportunity for a career. When the YW see the RSP as a success both in and out of the home I can only imagine it helps them better see their place in the church as an adult, and one that will most likely be required to work to help support a family.

[DrumNFeather]

This is our ward. We have our typical group of SAHMs but the YWP and RSP are both career people, and unabashedly so. It creates a great and diverse environment for the YW, most of whom want more education and some opportunity for a career. When the YW see the RSP as a success both in and out of the home I can only imagine it helps them better see their place in the church as an adult, and one that will most likely be required to work to help support a family.

I don't know about your ward, but in my ward both groups are just an outstanding group of people...and to me is really evidence that you can be smart, capable, good role model sort of regardless of what choice you make. It seems like so many people want to fit it into an either/or category with one clearly being superior depending on which side you are on and to me that is the most dangerous.

[UtahDan]

I don't know about your ward, but in my ward both groups are just an outstanding group of people...and to me is really evidence that you can be smart, capable, good role model sort of regardless of what choice you make. It seems like so many people want to fit it into an either/or category with one clearly being superior depending on which side you are on and to me that is the most dangerous.

My sense is that what you and Moliere are talking about is a lot less common in Utah and other places were the Mormon population is very dense. Just one more reason for you to not ever move there, sir.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My sense is that what you and Moliere are talking about is a lot less common in Utah and other places were the Mormon population is very dense. Just one more reason for you to not ever move there, sir.