Joanna Brooks article on CNN.com

[pellegrino]

Please. I know lots of people that avoid caffeine out of respect to the WoW. There are very few of those that I would classify as Nazi Mormons. The point is that JB's description of her childhood based on that story is not a caricature of LDS culture as some are implying.

Furthermore, as ER or someone pointed out, the Diet Coke consumers probably seem to be the strangest to the outsiders. Why drink caffeine sodas and avoid coffee and tea? That makes little sense.

FWIW I don't think that. She makes it clear that's just her experience. I have friends from the Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Jewish and Adventist faiths that all have stories about the same varying degrees of perceived devoutness and related Pharisaic behavior. Inside every person who cares about his/her religion there is a little Pharisee trying to get out.

Really? Are you sure?

No doubt there are many Mormons (primarily in Utah, IMO) who feel that way. but think you do me (and others of your co-religionists who try to be thoughtful about such matters) an injustice here. We want the faith to be seen fairly and in context. I'm happy to defend and explain Mormonism, but not to respond to caricatures of it.

Can you run that by me one more time? I'm still a little confused as to what you do or don't think.

[pellegrino]

I think these are two different things. Mormons believe that if someone understands us, they will not object to us. Moreover, if someone understands us spiritually, they will be converted. But apart from that, there is a driving urge to be liked. We are like millions of Sally Fields who are happiest when we are liked. I think this is a dominant urge in not only the church, but also in Utah culture in general (to the extent they can be distinguished).

I'll be honest. A big part of my personality thrives on being liked. I am at a loss when for no apparent (to me, that is) reason someone dislikes me. I hadn't ever thought of it being rooted in my culture, but now that I think about it, it might be, at least to a certain degree.

[Babs]

Can you run that by me one more time? I'm still a little confused as to what you do or don't think.

You mean think you do co-religion thoughtfulness them?

[pellegrino]

You mean think you do co-religion thoughtfulness them?

edited for clarity.

[UtahDan]

I'll be honest. A big part of my personality thrives on being liked. I am at a loss when for no apparent (to me, that is) reason someone dislikes me. I hadn't ever thought of it being rooted in my culture, but now that I think about it, it might be, at least to a certain degree.

I like you. Very much.

[pellegrino]

I like you. Very much.

thanks, man. you really know how to lift someone up.

[LA Ute]

Can you run that by me one more time? I'm still a little confused as to what you do or don't think.

Good grief, Pilgrim, you need to avoid assuming you know what I think and jumping to conclusions. I know it's hard for you to imagine a guy like me having complex views, but do try! When I said I am happy to explain my faith but not to respond to caricatures, I was not referring to Joanna Brooks. If you look around, both here in CUF-land and my blog, not to mention other places, I've used that language many times. It's not original. I think I picked the caricature idea up from one of the early LDS leaders - one of the Kimballs or Hydes, maybe. So when I later said I didn't think JB was caricaturing LDS culture, I meant that. Each time I was talking about a different thing.

Being understood is being liked.

Do you really think that is always true? In a religious sense, lots of people have been killed exactly because they were understood. It is in that sense that I was saying it is more important for our faith to be understood than liked.

By the way, I forgive you. Just thought you should know, you miserable vomitous mass.

P.S. I like you.

[myboynoah]

I knew you had my back.

As always, in my most articulate way.

We are like millions of Sally Fields who are happiest when we are liked. I think this is a dominant urge in not only the church, but also in Utah culture in general (to the extent they can be distinguished).

As evidenced by all the PAC-12 apparel.

[Topper]

Good grief, Pilgrim, you need to avoid assuming you know what I think and jumping to conclusions. I know it's hard for you to imagine a guy like me having complex views, but do try! When I said I am happy to explain my faith but not to respond to caricatures, I was not referring to Joanna Brooks. If you look around, both here in CUF-land and my blog, not to mention other places, I've used that language many times. It's not original. I think I picked the caricature idea up from one of the early LDS leaders - one of the Kimballs or Hydes, maybe. So when I later said I didn't think JB was caricaturing LDS culture, I meant that. Each time I was talking about a different thing.



Do you really think that is always true? In a religious sense, lots of people have been killed exactly because they were understood. It is in that sense that I was saying it is more important for our faith to be understood than liked.

By the way, I forgive you. Just thought you should know, you miserable vomitous mass.

P.S. I like you.

I thrive on being disliked and ignored.

[Jeff Lebowski]

As evidenced by all the PAC-12 apparel.

Swish.

[FMCoug]

I think these are two different things. Mormons believe that if someone understands us, they will not object to us. Moreover, if someone understands us spiritually, they will be converted. But apart from that, there is a driving urge to be liked. We are like millions of Sally Fields who are happiest when we are liked. I think this is a dominant urge in not only the church, but also in Utah culture in general (to the extent they can be distinguished).

I'll be honest. A big part of my personality thrives on being liked. I am at a loss when for no apparent (to me, that is) reason someone dislikes me. I hadn't ever thought of it being rooted in my culture, but now that I think about it, it might be, at least to a certain degree.

Interesting observations. I tend to agree but I also wonder if that isn't why I find myself at odds with a lot of Mos much of the time. As a hard core introvert, I am one who literally does not give a shit what anybody else thinks. I just don't. My wife OTOH very much needs to be validated by others liking her. Interestingly, she was raised in the Church ... I was not.

[LA Ute]

I think these are two different things. Mormons believe that if someone understands us, they will not object to us. Moreover, if someone understands us spiritually, they will be converted. But apart from that, there is a driving urge to be liked. We are like millions of Sally Fields who are happiest when we are liked. I think this is a dominant urge in not only the church, but also in Utah culture in general (to the extent they can be distinguished).

Hey Lebowski, why isn't this a passive-aggressive jab at Utah culture?

[Babs]

Hey Lebowski, why isn't this a passive-aggressive jab at Utah culture?

Only if you concede that a comparison to LDS culture is an insult.

[lambdacoug]

You lived in what we called a "Nazi Mormon" household. Sounds like JL did, too. Where I grew up, maybe 10% of the ward was like that. You and JL got the luck of the draw. Most everyone else was more relaxed. I can only think of one of my bishops growing up that did not have a Coke or a Pepsi. The other one made no issue of it either way.

Was the caffeinated beverage issue "out there" when I was growing up ( I am 37 and grew up in Northern Utah)? Sure. But the people that made a big stink about it in public and at Church were viewed as pharisees. Those same people generally were vocal about staying dressed in Sunday apparel all day on Sunday and not watching TV at all on Sunday. They were also vocal that tithing was to be paid on net. They were by no means a plurality of the wards I grew up in.

IMO, just because there are some people in a community that vocally have pet causes does NOT mean that the average person in that community shares those views.

Well, I'm glad it's that easy for you to dismiss the shit I went through in the name of your religion. I mean, shit, if you think its not that normal, it must not be.

EDIT: My family/parents were never vocal about this...unless you count the numerous occasions I had to tell my teachers at school that I couldn't drink coke that other kids had brought to school activities. BTW, I'm 37 too and grew up outside of Utah. Being "a peculiar people" was our red badge of courage.

[lambdacoug]

Yeah.

Of the five that I remember, my parents were friends with all of them. Bishop D drank Pepsi at Lake Powell. Bishop L drank Pepsi on family trips/hangouts. Bishop M vacationed with us at Lake Powell and drank Coke. My dad was a bishop and would drink Coke/Pepsi/Dr. Pepper. The only one that wasn't as close to the family was Bishop R and as such I don't know what his "habits" were. He very well may have drank caffeinated beverages, too. He never made an issue of it either way. He was in young mens prior to the bishopric and never said anything to young men that drank caff. bev.

Oh, I forgot Bishop B. His son and I were the same age. I spent a lot of time with his family. They had/tolerated caffeine in their home, too.

Truly forward thinkers, the lot.