Jesus in the garden

[SoonerCoug]

When Jesus was praying in the garden, why was he so worried about the apostles staying awake? Was it because he needed them to stand guard? Why was he so worried about them standing guard? I often wonder about this part of the story.

When I objectively read about Jesus in the garden, it sounds to me like it's all about Jesus being afraid of capture and death. He was praying for the cup to pass (not to be captured and killed), and he was wanting his apostles to stand guard so that he wouldn't be captured.

This is a very human element of the Jesus story. Capture and death don't seem like the sort of thing that an immortal God should fear. Perhaps this is why Mormonism has related Jesus's intense fear to an unfathomable "atonement" in the garden instead of to a routine crucifixion.

[BlueHair]

When Jesus was praying in the garden, why was he so worried about the apostles staying awake? Was it because he needed them to stand guard? Why was he so worried about them standing guard? I often wonder about this part of the story.

When I objectively read about Jesus in the garden, it sounds to me like it's all about Jesus being afraid of capture and death. He was praying for the cup to pass (not to be captured and killed), and he was wanting his apostles to stand guard so that he wouldn't be captured.

This is a very human element of the Jesus story. Capture and death don't seem like the sort of thing that an immortal God should fear. Perhaps this is why Mormonism has related Jesus's intense fear to an unfathomable "atonement" in the garden instead of to a routine crucifixion.

You are the most unbelieving believer I know.

[Surfah]

When Jesus was praying in the garden, why was he so worried about the apostles staying awake? Was it because he needed them to stand guard? Why was he so worried about them standing guard? I often wonder about this part of the story.

When I objectively read about Jesus in the garden, it sounds to me like it's all about Jesus being afraid of capture and death. He was praying for the cup to pass (not to be captured and killed), and he was wanting his apostles to stand guard so that he wouldn't be captured.

This is a very human element of the Jesus story. Capture and death don't seem like the sort of thing that an immortal God should fear. Perhaps this is why Mormonism has related Jesus's intense fear to an unfathomable "atonement" in the garden instead of to a routine crucifixion.

I have never read it like that. I have always found it to be revelatory as to the human side of Christ as well, but not because he was afraid of being captured and killed rather because he didn't want to be alone while suffering. The crucifixion made the atonement complete. The atonement began in the garden though. Mormons miss the mark on this often. I believe the bitter cup he referred to encompassed the entire event, not just what transpired in the garden.

[SoonerCoug]

I believe the bitter cup he referred to encompassed the entire event, not just what transpired in the garden.

I don't think I was missing the mark on this. I know what Mormons are taught in Sunday School. I'm saying that I don't see how the story as it is written supports what Mormons are taught. It sounds to me like a story describing a typical human reaction of being afraid of capture and death. I don't see how the story is attempting to describe an atonement in the garden (or in the garden and on the cross).

[Surfah]

I don't think I was missing the mark on this. I know what Mormons are taught in Sunday School. I'm saying that I don't see how the story as it is written supports what Mormons are taught. It sounds to me like a story describing a typical human reaction of being afraid of capture and death. I don't see how the story is attempting to describe an atonement in the garden (or in the garden and on the cross).

Not saying you did. Just making a generality that many believe the atonement was an act committed solely in the garden.

Sorry but I am not following the rest of what you're saying here.

[SoonerCoug]

Not saying you did. Just making a generality that many believe the atonement was an act committed solely in the garden.

Sorry but I am not following the rest of what you're saying here.

I'm not talking about what Mormons believe. I'm talking about how it's written. If you separate yourself from our own religious biases and read it as a story, does it really sound like an unfathomable act to save the world from sin is taking place in the garden?

[All-American]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like he's saying the lds version of the atonement isn't consistent with the accounts in the gospels. And he's right. Most of what Lds teach regarding the savior's suffering in the garden is extrapolated from the Luke account, which says his sweat was as it were great drops of blood. The notion that there was suffering involved comes from mosiah 3 and D&C 19.

[Surfah]

I'm not talking about what Mormons believe. I'm talking about how it's written. If you separate yourself from our own religious biases and read it as a story, does it really sound like an unfathomable act to save the world from sin is taking place in the garden?

Okay, but that's different than your initial question of why Jesus was so worried about the apostles staying awake.

I get what you're saying I guess. Taking out the BoM and modern day revelation I guess your interpretation has merit.

[LA Ute]

I have never read it like that. I have always found it to be revelatory as to the human side of Christ as well, but not because he was afraid of being captured and killed rather because he didn't want to be alone while suffering. The crucifixion made the atonement complete. The atonement began in the garden though. Mormons miss the mark on this often. I believe the bitter cup he referred to encompassed the entire event, not just what transpired in the garden.

I agree. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone, Mormon or not, speculate that the Savior feared capture and being killed. I think that as the suffering of Gethsemane approached and he began to sense what it really meant, he was "amazed" and naturally sought support and comfort. Elder Holland's talk Sunday morning shared some new (to me) insights on what happened in Gethsemane.

[SoonerCoug]

Taking out the BoM and modern day revelation I guess your interpretation has merit.

Yeah, I'm sort of saying that the Mormon interpretation resolves one problem but creates another. If "the atonement" was just about the crucifixion, then that would be silly. There are worse ways to suffer and die (Fournier's gangrene, for example). On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to me that Jesus was so worried about the apostles staying awake. What good is the "comfort" of a few fellows that aren't even sitting near you, especially when you're taking on the sins of all human beings past and present?

[LA Ute]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like he's saying the lds version of the atonement isn't consistent with the accounts in the gospels. And he's right. Most of what Lds teach regarding the savior's suffering in the garden is extrapolated from the Luke account, which says his sweat was as it were great drops of blood. The notion that there was suffering involved comes from mosiah 3 and D&C 19.

I disagree. It is wholly consistent, but adds information not in the Gospels. That's pretty much our story about a lot of things in the Bible.

[Surfah]

Yeah, I'm sort of saying that the Mormon interpretation resolves one problem but creates another. If "the atonement" was just about the crucifixion, then that would be silly. There are worse ways to suffer and die (Fournier's gangrene, for example). On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to me that Jesus was so worried about the apostles staying awake. What good is the "comfort" of a few fellows that aren't even sitting near you, especially when you're taking on the sins of all human beings past and present?

Perhaps he wanted them to witness it so as their descriptions in their gospels wouldn't have been so lacking. But truthfully, I speculate that the Savior lived one of the loneliest if not the loneliest mortal life ever. I think the comfort from his friends witnessing the greatest act of love ever would have gone a long way to soothe his suffering.

Thinking about your afraid of being captured and killed interpretation some more, I don't think it holds up when you consider that the third time Christ told them to rest. Why does he do this? Has he come to terms with his impending death and no longer cares or needs his apostles' protection?

[Babs]

you're missing the longer storyline, Sooner. It's a story about the passion of the Christ and the testing of the disciples. Christ has just completed the Last Supper, and warned his followers that a great test lies ahead, and that indeed every single one of them will fall away. Simon, in his usual brash manner, speaks up and says, "No way! Not me! Everybody else may abandon you, but I will remain to the very end."

So Jesus sets them up in the Garden. He says, "Okay fine. You're in it for the long haul. But I'm serious, the test is coming. If you wish to remain faithful, pray that you will not succumb."

Jesus goes off to pray for his own ability to endure, and comes back to find Simon -- this guy that just said he would stay the course to the bitter end -- has fallen asleep. He warns Simon again that if he wishes to withstand the test, he must pray and pray fervently. But Simon and the others fall back asleep.

The guys apologize, "okay, this time we'll do better! really! we mean it!!" But Jesus says, "Sorry, but time's up. The betrayal is at hand."

So Jesus is betrayed and we all know what happens next -- the followers of Christ, earlier too unconcerned to be bothered to pray for their own constancy -- each fall away, with Simon himself saying, "Who is this guy you're talking about? Jesus?? Never heard of him."

So while you could interpret the passage as one about Christ's need for companionship, I think that what happens in the Garden is part of a different lesson -- one about watchfulness, prayer, trial, and endurance.

[BlueHair]

The atonement is a very odd doctrine. God creates imperfect beings, sends them to earth with no memory, calls their actions "sin" (even though he took their memory), and sends his son to be murdered so the imperfect beings he created can be saved from their sins.

[Surfah]

you're missing the longer storyline, Sooner. It's a story about the passion of the Christ and the testing of the disciples. Christ has just completed the Last Supper, and warned his followers that a great test lies ahead, and that indeed every single one of them will fall away. Simon, in his usual brash manner, speaks up and says, "No way! Not me! Everybody else may abandon you, but I will remain to the very end."

So Jesus sets them up in the Garden. He says, "Okay fine. You're in it for the long haul. But I'm serious, the test is coming. If you wish to remain faithful, pray that you will not succumb."

Jesus goes off to pray for his own ability to endure, and comes back to find Simon -- this guy that just said he would stay the course to the bitter end -- has fallen asleep. He warns Simon again that if he wishes to withstand the test, he must pray and pray fervently. But Simon and the others fall back asleep.

The guys apologize, "okay, this time we'll do better! really! we mean it!!" But Jesus says, "Sorry, but time's up. The betrayal is at hand."

So Jesus is betrayed and we all know what happens next -- the followers of Christ, earlier too unconcerned to be bothered to pray for their own constancy -- each fall away, with Simon himself saying, "Who is this guy you're talking about? Jesus?? Never heard of him."

So while you could interpret the passage as one about Christ's need for companionship, I think that what happens in the Garden is part of a different lesson -- one about watchfulness, prayer, trial, and endurance.

This is consistent with what I have been taught as well.