"Consider the Lilies"

[ERCougar]

I struggle with this concept. I'm not sure the metaphor works as intended. Lilies (and the birds of the sky) live in a harsh, dog-eat-dog world where frankly, most individuals aren't cared for. I assume that the intent of the song isn't that if we trust in God, we'll be cared for as well as the 99.9% of species that have gone extinct in this cold natural-selection driven world.

If we close our eyes to the realities of evolution and survival and assume that the intent is that God will take care of those who trust in Him, what does this mean? Do we really not need to do anything, leaving all provision to God? That doesn't strike me as very helpful in life (or correct).

The one comfort I have taken from this concept is that God is aware of me and will always provide for my basic needs. However, as I reflect on children in Africa, I wonder if this "provision" is more a function of my American citizenship than it is of my trust in God.

EDIT: Also, I don't really like it when speakers "take no thought" as to the words they're going to say.

2nd EDIT: My wife just pointed out that even in a "dog-eat-dog" world, there still are beautiful lilies and birds, and that maybe that's the point of the metaphor. I kind of like that.

[CardiacCoug]

I struggle with this concept. I'm not sure the metaphor works as intended. Lilies (and the birds of the sky) live in a harsh, dog-eat-dog world where frankly, most individuals aren't cared for. I assume that the intent of the song isn't that if we trust in God, we'll be cared for as well as the 99.9% of species that have gone extinct in this cold natural-selection driven world.

If we close our eyes to the realities of evolution and survival and assume that the intent is that God will take care of those who trust in Him, what does this mean? Do we really not need to do anything, leaving all provision to God? That doesn't strike me as very helpful in life (or correct).

The one comfort I have taken from this concept is that God is aware of me and will always provide for my basic needs. However, as I reflect on children in Africa, I wonder if this "provision" is more a function of my American citizenship than it is of my trust in God.

EDIT: Also, I don't really like it when speakers "take no thought" as to the words they're going to say.

2nd EDIT: My wife just pointed out that even in a "dog-eat-dog" world, there still are beautiful lilies and birds, and that maybe that's the point of the metaphor. I kind of like that.

Just more evidence of why you shouldn't believe in evolution. It's a tool of the devil that makes us start question the wisdom of hymns.

[ERCougar]

Just more evidence of why you shouldn't believe in evolution. It's a tool of the devil that makes us start question the wisdom of hymns.

Oh, shut up.

[Babs]

I struggle with this concept. I'm not sure the metaphor works as intended. Lilies (and the birds of the sky) live in a harsh, dog-eat-dog world where frankly, most individuals aren't cared for. I assume that the intent of the song isn't that if we trust in God, we'll be cared for as well as the 99.9% of species that have gone extinct in this cold natural-selection driven world.

If we close our eyes to the realities of evolution and survival and assume that the intent is that God will take care of those who trust in Him, what does this mean? Do we really not need to do anything, leaving all provision to God? That doesn't strike me as very helpful in life (or correct).

I'm a little confused by the reference to the hymn. I don't know what the hymn is, nor how the lyricist interpreted the scripture referenced.

If you read the chapter (Luke 12), it's pretty clear that Luke is not suggesting that if you hang out and trust God, your temporal needs are guaranteed. In fact, rather the opposite -- even the lilies are fated to a brief and uncertain existence. Instead, he's suggesting that the impermanent and uncertain nature of all things earthly is why investment should be made in the kingdom of heaven instead of the kingdom of earth. Further, what is perceived as a need on earth is not really a need in the long term. "Life is more than food, and the body more than its clothes."

Luke says that if you trust in God and seek His Kingdom, then no matter what becomes of you or what you suffer on this earth; God will remember you in the end, and reward your service. The glory of the lilies of the field is nothing compared to the glory to be bestowed upon the faithful in heaven.

[ERCougar]

I'm a little confused by the reference to the hymn. I don't know what the hymn is, nor how the lyricist interpreted the scripture referenced.

If you read the chapter (Luke 12), it's pretty clear that Luke is not suggesting that if you hang out and trust God, your temporal needs are guaranteed. In fact, rather the opposite -- even the lilies are fated to a brief and uncertain existence. Instead, he's suggesting that the impermanent and uncertain nature of all things earthly is why investment should be made in the kingdom of heaven instead of the kingdom of earth. Further, what is perceived as a need on earth is not really a need in the long term. "Life is more than food, and the body more than its clothes."

Luke says that if you trust in God and seek His Kingdom, then no matter what becomes of you or what you suffer on this earth; God will remember you in the end, and reward your service. The glory of the lilies of the field is nothing compared to the glory to be bestowed upon the faithful in heaven.

The point of the song (it's not one of our "Hymns") is roughly that God will take care of those who trust in Him just as He takes care of the lilies of the field and birds of the sky. I can't find the lyrics of this particular arrangement (by Mack Wilberg, a LDS arranger).

Here's the scripture:

27 Consider the alilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; ahow much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of adoubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 ¶ aBut rather seek ye the bkingdom of God; and call these things shall be added unto you.

There's certainly the spiritual-over-temporal idea that you suggest, but there's also the idea that God knows our needs and will fill them. The song emphasizes the latter.

EDIT: Ok, as I reread your comment, I see what you're saying--that these promised provisions are purely spiritual, right? In that case, what are "these things" that "shall be added unto you"?

[Babs]

The point of the song (it's not one of our "Hymns") is roughly that God will take care of those who trust in Him just as He takes care of the lilies of the field and birds of the sky. I can't find the lyrics of this particular arrangement (by Mack Wilberg, a LDS arranger).

Here's the scripture:


There's certainly the spiritual-over-temporal idea that you suggest, but there's also the idea that God knows our needs and will fill them. The song emphasizes the latter.

EDIT: Ok, as I reread your comment, I see what you're saying--that these promised provisions are purely spiritual, right? In that case, what are "these things" that "shall be added unto you"?

Safety, comfort, glory, life. The commodities represented by food and clothing in this life will be added in the next.

Look at the whole chapter. The tone is very dark and ominous:

I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God.

...

For who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

Consider his audience. He's talking to his disciples about the mission he is leaving them. There's no doubt these men are going to be persecuted and worse. They will lose all that they have. Jesus (or, after the fact, with the outcome established, Luke) is not going to be making material reassurance of any kind. In fact, he's nearly guaranteeing them the opposite, but encouraging them to persevere in hopes of a greater reward.

[ERCougar]

Safety, comfort, glory, life. The commodities represented by food and clothing in this life will be added in the next.

Look at the whole chapter. The tone is very dark and ominous:

Consider his audience. He's talking to his disciples about the mission he is leaving them. There's no doubt these men are going to be persecuted and worse. They will lose all that they have. Jesus (or, after the fact, with the outcome established, Luke) is not going to be making material reassurance of any kind. In fact, he's nearly guaranteeing them the opposite, but encouraging them to persevere in hopes of a greater reward.

So do we just write this off as a different intended audience? Is there no message for the rest of us, those of us who will likely not have to risk personal safety for the Gospel? Obviously, He wants us to put the kingdom of God first in our lives, and that eternally, this pays off. But as I read it, there is a promise of temporal provision--the ravens are fed, the lilies are arrayed in "glory", the grass is "clothed", and all before "being cast into the oven". Why include these examples if we're only talking spiritual welfare? Why not just skip forward to the "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" part?

[ERCougar]

One more question...
-I'm not a translation junkie, so I only have the good ol' KJV in front of me. I'm wondering if there is a translational issue--in verses 25-26, what is an alternate translation for "take thought"?

[Fiyero]

in verses 25-26, what is an alternate translation for "take thought"?

I echo Babs' earlier thoughts in this thread.

For this question, you may want to try Archaea.

[Babs]

One more question...
-I'm not a translation junkie, so I only have the good ol' KJV in front of me. I'm wondering if there is a translational issue--in verses 25-26, what is an alternate translation for "take thought"?

Mine says worry. The word is merimnao, to be troubled or anxious.

As far as your earlier question, "do we write this off as a different intended audience," I guess that depends on whether one counts himself as a disciple. And why does the author keep referring to material needs and desires? I imagine that that's what the audience was familiar with, and that was their primary concern at this time. He keeps bringing up their temporal concerns, and then juxtaposing them with the righteous man's eternal concerns.

But as I said before, I find it hard to believe that there's any reassurance that those material needs will be met, when the picture being painted throughout the chapter is that of mortal sacrifice -- the sparrow who is sold for twopence, the grasses that are thrown into the fire. These sacrifices are deemed worthy in the sight of God, and so too will whatever sacrifices the faithful offer up.

[Solon]

Mine says worry. The word is merimnao, to be troubled or anxious.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph.jsp?l=merimnw%3Dn&la=greek&prior=u(mw=n&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0155:book=Luke:chapter=12:verse=25&i=1#lexicon

[I have no time to comment but thought this link might be of use (if it works). Click on one of the lexicon names for definitions (i.e. LDS, Middle Liddell, etc.)]

[Babs]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...25&i=1#lexicon

[I have no time to comment but thought this link might be of use (if it works). Click on one of the lexicon names for definitions (i.e. LDS, Middle Liddell, etc.)]

Lexicons are great. I've never used that one, though.

[Solon]

Lexicons are great. I've never used that one, though.

Why do they call it a 'lexicon' and not a dictionary? I'd look it up, but I'm guessing I'd get a biased answer depending on what type of reference I consulted.

I own about 25 lbs. of lexicons (or "lexica" as my snooty peers say).

[Babs]

Why do they call it a 'lexicon' and not a dictionary? I'd look it up, but I'm guessing I'd get a biased answer depending on what type of reference I consulted.

I own about 25 lbs. of lexicons (or "lexica" as my snooty peers say).

ooh! A question about reference materials! (No, I'm sorry, sir, but you can't check out the lexicon.)

After Strong created his concordance-lexicon combination in the 1800s, lexicon has come to refer to a work that describes the use of a language (or its words) in a certain context, rather than (as with a dictionary) a work that describes or defines within a vacuum. So the Bible lexicons define Greek as Greek is used in the NT, instead of in general.

You already know that if you look up phileo in a dictionary, it will give you the definition; but that if you look it up in a Bible lexicon, it will give you all the different ways that word is translated in the New Testament, with a list of all the verses in which each translation appears. So it's a different tool. The differences were easier to see when you had the print editions of a concordance, lexicon, and dictionary side-by-side. Now the online references often include all three tools in one, so it's no longer as easy (or even necessary) to discern the one from the other.

[wuapinmon]

One more question...
-I'm not a translation junkie, so I only have the good ol' KJV in front of me. I'm wondering if there is a translational issue--in verses 25-26, what is an alternate translation for "take thought"?

http://scripturetext.com/luke/12-26.htm

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters?

King James Bible
If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

American King James Version
If you then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take you thought for the rest?

American Standard Version
If then ye are not able to do even that which is least, why are ye anxious concerning the rest?

Douay-Rheims Bible
If then ye be not able to do so much as the least thing, why are you solicitous for the rest?

Darby Bible Translation
If therefore ye cannot do even what is least, why are ye careful about the rest?

English Revised Version
If then ye are not able to do even that which is least, why are ye anxious concerning the rest?

Webster's Bible Translation
If ye then are not able to do that thing which is least, why are ye anxious for the rest?

World English Bible
If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest?

Young's Literal Translation
If, then, ye are not able for the least -- why for the rest are ye anxious?

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
εἰ οὖν οὐδὲ ἐλάχιστον δύνασθε, τί περὶ τῶν λοιπῶν μεριμνᾶτε;

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
εἰ οὖν οὔτε ἐλάχιστον δύνασθε, τί περὶ τῶν λοιπῶν μεριμνᾶτε;

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
εἰ οὖν οὐτὲ ἐλάχιστον δύνασθε τί περὶ τῶν λοιπῶν μεριμνᾶτε

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
εἰ οὖν οὐδὲ ἐλάχιστον δύνασθε, τί περὶ τῶν λοιπῶν μεριμνᾶτε;

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed.
ει ουν ουδε ελαχιστον δυνασθε τι περι των λοιπων μεριμνατε

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
ει ουν ουτε ελαχιστον δυνασθε τι περι των λοιπων μεριμνατε

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
ει ουν ουτε ελαχιστον δυνασθε τι περι των λοιπων μεριμνατε

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
ει ουν ουτε ελαχιστον δυνασθε τι περι των λοιπων μεριμνατε

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 12:26 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort
ει ουν ουδε ελαχιστον δυνασθε τι περι των λοιπων μεριμνατε

Luke 12:26 Hebrew Bible
ועתה הן מעט מזער אין ביכלתכם וליותר מה תדאגו׃

Apocalypsis 22:21 Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata
si ergo neque quod minimum est potestis quid de ceteris solliciti estis

Lucas 12:26 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997)
Si vosotros, pues, no podéis hacer algo tan pequeño, ¿por qué os preocupáis por lo demás?

Lucas 12:26 Spanish: La Nueva Biblia de los Hispanos (©2005)
"Si ustedes, pues, no pueden hacer algo tan pequeño, ¿por qué se preocupan por lo demás?

Lucas 12:26 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909)
Pues si no podéis aun lo que es menos, ¿para qué estaréis afanosos de lo demás?

Lucas 12:26 Spanish: Sagradas Escrituras (1569)
Pues si no podéis aun lo que es menos, ¿para qué estaréis afanosos de lo demás?

Lucas 12:26 Spanish: Modern
Pues si no podéis lo que es menos, ¿por qué estáis afanosos de lo demás?

Luc 12:26 French: Louis Segond (1910)
Si donc vous ne pouvez pas même la moindre chose, pourquoi vous inquiétez-vous du reste?

Luc 12:26 French: Darby
Si donc vous ne pouvez pas même ce qui est très-petit, pourquoi êtes-vous en souci du reste?

Luc 12:26 French: Martin (1744)
Si donc vous ne pouvez pas même ce qui est très-petit, pourquoi êtes-vous en souci du reste?

Luc 12:26 French: Ostervald (1744)
Si donc vous ne pouvez pas même les plus petites choses, pourquoi vous inquiétez-vous du reste?

Lukas 12:26 German: Luther (1912)
So ihr denn das Geringste nicht vermöget, warum sorgt ihr für das andere?

Lukas 12:26 German: Luther (1545)
So ihr denn das Geringste nicht vermöget, warum sorget ihr für das andere?

Lukas 12:26 German: Elberfelder (1871)
Wenn ihr nun auch das Geringste nicht vermöget, warum seid ihr um das Übrige besorgt?

μεριμνατε verb - present active indicative - second person
merimnao mer-im-nah'-o: to be anxious about -- (be, have) care(-ful), take thought.