Three Degrees of Glory, prevailing thought and the D&C.

[Portland Ute]

What is the prevailing thought amongst Mormons and does it actually have a scriptural basis?

We had a discussion in Elder's Quorum this past Sunday regarding the three degrees of glory.

A few of us were a bit stumped by the difference in prevailing Mormon thought and what the scriptures (D&C 76)actually say regarding who inhabits those kingdoms.

In D&C 76 it says, regarding the Terrestrial Kingdom:

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who a received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are ahonorable men of the earth, who were bblinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

The footnote (in red) to "received in verse 74 leads the reader to this:

D&C 138:32:

Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

These scriptures seem to plainly indicate that unless you accept the gospel while on this earth, regardless of whether or not you were aware of it, you are bound for the terrestrial kingdom.

My thoughts:

This seems very messed up. 6 billion people in the world and 13 million have currently "received it while in the flesh".

I think this is part of the reason that LDS folks like to think that this scripture doesn't say what it actually says.

Secondly, if this is true, then the idea of doing temple work is really rather pointless.

When a couple of people began to discuss this in class, the instructor and another guy quickly said, 'Well, that's not what we believe and that's not what the scripture means."

The footnoted scripture in 138 was then pointed out by one of the TBM zealots in the class (I believe he actually likes the idea that he will be one of a limited few in the Celestial Kingdom and that's why he pointed this out).

The discussion was then ended by the instructor and we were told, "We are going to move on from this."

[Commando]

IMHO, the key word here in D&C seems to be "received." I think received is used here as "accepted." I think this scripture (DC 76) refers to a generally good person who did not accept the gospel at first for whatever reason then later received it/accepted it when away from mortal distractions/temptations.

*the footnote seems to support this with the phrase, "having rejected the prophets."

[Portland Ute]

IMHO, the key word here in D&C seems to be "received." I think received is used here as "accepted." I think this scripture (DC 76) refers to a generally good person who did not accept the gospel at first for whatever reason then later received it/accepted it when away from mortal distractions/temptations.

Read D&C 138 says specifically that this includes "those that died...without a knowledge of the truth"

[Commando]

Read D&C 138 says specifically that this includes "those that died...without a knowledge of the truth or in transgression, having rejected the prophets"

fify

[Portland Ute]

fify

D&C 138:32

Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

FIFY

[Mr. Mcgibblets]

This is something I have wondered for a while now. I'd appreciate an update if you ever learn anything new.

[LA Coug]

My thoughts:

This seems very messed up. 6 billion people in the world and 13 million have currently "received it while in the flesh".

I also prefer the line of thinking outlined in 137:7

"Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

Admittedly, I struggle to reconcile this verse with the verses in 76 you mention, but there are for more capable folks on here who I'm sure could figure out the reconciliation.

[Jacob]

I also prefer the line of thinking outlined in 137:7

"Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

Admittedly, I struggle to reconcile this verse with the verses in 76 you mention, but there are for more capable folks on here who I'm sure could figure out the reconciliation.

Is it that difficult to reconcile? Section 76 was not clear on the subject, and it appears that Joseph, at the time, didn't believe that one could get Celestial glory without having been baptized during his mortal life. Then Joseph (or God) further clarified section 76 with Section 137 and clearly stated that there is no such limit to entering the celestial kingdom.

The elder who argued otherwise in EQ meeting is a moran.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since eslept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the avoice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

[LA Coug]

Is it that difficult to reconcile? Section 76 was not clear on the subject.....

Section 76 seems pretty clear on the subject, which is where I struggle to reconcile. Verse 74 in particular seems straightforward, easy to understand what the verse is saying.

[SoonerCoug]

I think a more meaningful debate would be on whether the three degrees of glory actually exist.

[Moliere]

I also prefer the line of thinking outlined in 137:7

"Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

Admittedly, I struggle to reconcile this verse with the verses in 76 you mention, but there are for more capable folks on here who I'm sure could figure out the reconciliation.

There are many instances where prevailing Mormon thought and practice are not in line with the standard works (WoW comes to mind). This is why I find it so odd that we insist on validating everything through some random scripture citation from the standard works.

Joseph's gospel matured quite a lot from 1835 to 1838 and it's likely the requirements to get into the celestial kingdom was expanded along with other doctrines.

[Moliere]

I think a more meaningful debate would be on whether the three degrees of glory actually exist.

They may not exist as definitively distinct and separate locations, but I like the idea that people will be rewarded based on faithfulness with everyone getting into some sort of glory. This is a great departure from the typical black and white/heaven and hell prevailing Christian thought on the afterlife.

[Jacob]

I think a more meaningful debate would be on whether the three degrees of glory actually exist.

somehow I don't think so. seen the christopher hitchens thread?

[TripletDaddy]

They may not exist as definitively distinct and separate locations, but I like the idea that people will be rewarded based on faithfulness with everyone getting into some sort of glory. This is a great departure from the typical black and white/heaven and hell prevailing Christian thought on the afterlife.

One remnant of apocrypha that I wouldn't mind seeing brought back into the mainstream is the notion that if we could see the Telestial Kingdom/beyond the veil that we would kill ourselves just to get there. I remember really latching onto that one as a YM in high school and thinking about how nice the Telestial Kingdom must be. It was a nice fallback position knowing that I was still pretty set even when I messed up in HS and college.

[Jacob]

One remnant of apocrypha that I wouldn't mind seeing brought back into the mainstream is the notion that if we could see the Telestial Kingdom/beyond the veil that we would kill ourselves just to get there. I remember really latching onto that one as a YM in high school and thinking about how nice the Telestial Kingdom must be. It was a nice fallback position knowing that I was still pretty set even when I messed up in HS and college.

apocrypha? I live by that quote.