God's need for Glory

[Sullyute]

So in Elder’s quorum this week the instructor quoted Moses 1:10 “[Moses] said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing.” The instructor went on to state that we are nothing without God; which isn’t exactly what that scripture is about. We got into a discussion and I asked whether God might be nothing without us? I cited Moses 1:39 (this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the eternal life of man) and said it could be argued that since God’s glory depends on the salvation of man, that He might be nothing without us. This heretical idea got shot down pretty fast.

But the quick discussion got me thinking and then looking at some scriptures about God’s glory. Here are a few that I found:

John 15:8

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Isaiah 49:3

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified

Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

D&C 81:4

And in doing these things thou wilt do the greatest good unto thy fellow beings, and wilt promote the glory of him who is your Lord.

Moses 1:5

Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

So from these readings it seems to be that God gets glory from his works or the works of those who follow him. Why does God want or need all of this glory? What does this glory do for him? Is this just some type of celestial ponzi scheme, where everyone’s works benefit the person ahead of them? Maybe I am just taking it all out of context, I dunno.

There is also this additional scripture on glory, but I don’t know how it fits with those above:

D&C 93:36

The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

So what are your thoughts on God’s need for glory and whether God needs us as much as we need him?

[ERCougar]

There is a really fantastic article on God needing us referenced on mormonstories.
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-.../150-48-59.pdf

More related to the nature of love than of glory, but still a little relevant.

[creekster]

if a tree falls in the forest but no one isd there to hear it . . .

[taekwondave]

So in Elder’s quorum this week the instructor quoted Moses 1:10 “[Moses] said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing.” The instructor went on to state that we are nothing without God; which isn’t exactly what that scripture is about. We got into a discussion and I asked whether God might be nothing without us? I cited Moses 1:39 (this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the eternal life of man) and said it could be argued that since God’s glory depends on the salvation of man, that He might be nothing without us. This heretical idea got shot down pretty fast.

But the quick discussion got me thinking and then looking at some scriptures about God’s glory. Here are a few that I found:

John 15:8
Isaiah 49:3
Matthew 5:16
D&C 81:4
Moses 1:5

So from these readings it seems to be that God gets glory from his works or the works of those who follow him. Why does God want or need all of this glory? What does this glory do for him? Is this just some type of celestial ponzi scheme, where everyone’s works benefit the person ahead of them? Maybe I am just taking it all out of context, I dunno.

There is also this additional scripture on glory, but I don’t know how it fits with those above:

D&C 93:36

So what are your thoughts on God’s need for glory and whether God needs us as much as we need him?

Actually, I thought your observation in Elder's Quorum was quite astute. This is a problem in all Christian sects imo. They have created many "have your cake and eat it too" doctrines. They seem to line up logically in one direction, but when you want to go back the other way, everyone gets hot under the collar. Meh.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

This is an interesting topic. The original declaration of Moses that that he is "nothing" after seeing all of the works of God and the worlds without number never made much sense to me. It isn't God's mission to make us feel little. Moses was told directly that he was the His son AND that there was "a work for thee." Had I seen what Moses was shown while being told essentially, that I need your help with this stuff, I don't come away from that experience feeling insignificant. Humble and insecure, yet. But not insignificant.

It reminds me of the play Uncle Vanya by Chekov where the whole story peole just sit around and complain about their pathetic lives but when the reoccurring question arises, "What do you want?" There's always the long sigh, "Nothing."

So when Moses supposes that "man is nothing," I think this is his only way of encompassing this overwhelmingly unspeakable everything. He can't quite come up with "Man is God, which thing I never had supposed."

I don't know. And it doesn't even address your point. I just love that chapter and thought I'd throw the thought out there. I tried it in Sunday School once and got crickets.

As for your point, there's another scripture that comes to mind that I can't seem to find after a quick search. It is talking about the "war in heaven" and Lucifer essentially demands God to "give me Thy honor, which is Thy power." I think honor and glory are interchangeable in this context. So it's easy to bridge it that the glory of God is His power. Without the glory, He loses His power and as Alma suggests, ceases to be God. Celestial symbiosis if you will. I like that.

[LA Ute]

My favorite bit from October's GC, by Pres. Uchtdorf:

This is a paradox of man: compared to God, man is nothing; yet we are everything to God. While against the backdrop of infinite creation we may appear to be nothing, we have a spark of eternal fire burning within our breast. We have the incomprehensible promise of exaltation—worlds without end—within our grasp. And it is God’s great desire to help us reach it.

The rest of the talk is great too. I'm speaking on Sunday and have figured out how to shoehorn this thought into a Christmas Day talk.

[creekster]

What in those scriptures suggest God is nothing without the glory that is (arguably) bestowed by the success of his children?

[grapevine]

God has everything is the creator of the universe. How many galaxies does he have under his control how big are they hard to comprehend. Wonder if every galaxy astronomers see belongs to him? Yet he knows each and every one of us individually. Hard to comprehend.

One thing on his joy how can he be joyous if all his children don't return to him. But as the SAvior said on the American Continent my joy is full. Must be for him even though many of his children don't return to him.

[Sullyute]

Thanks for all of the great thought provoking responses.

My favorite bit from October's GC, by Pres. Uchtdorf

This was actually the talk that the instructor was teaching from (or specifically having us listen to) that prompted my initial question.

What in those scriptures suggest God is nothing without the glory that is (arguably) bestowed by the success of his children?

I was extrapolating. Those scriptures were more about God's glory and what it may entail and not not necesarily arguing for his nothingness. I don't believe that God is nothing without us, just as I don't believe I am nothing without my children. Those scriptures do seem to show that God is very concerned about his glory. I am just curious as to why.

[creekster]

I was extrapolating. Those scriptures were more about God's glory and what it may entail and not not necessarily arguing for his nothingness. I don't believe that God is nothing without us, just as I don't believe I am nothing without my children. Those scriptures do seem to show that God is very concerned about his glory. I am just curious as to why.

I understand what you were doing and that was my point. I think your premise may be flawed. IOW, that our obedience or success gives him glory does not necessarily mean he is diminished without it. Further, I think it may be an incorrect reading to suggest that our success is either the only source of His glory or that his statement means that we are necessary for his glory or status. But it may be that He feels that way about us, that prophets were infused with His sense of Love and desire for our success and so expressed this feeling and inspiration in this manner.

[hopfrog]

I've always found it perplexing, that such a superior Being has an intense need to be glorified by such a puny thing as humanity. Obviously, I cannot look through God's eyes and see reality as He does. His ways are not mine by far. I like that this is so. It convinces me that the limitations are my own, that my fraction of brain use it nothing compare to the Intelligence of God. Why he had to have temples built wherein beasts were sacrificed, so that he could smell the sweet fragrance of burnt offerings, mystifies me; and yet I believe it was something He required. And there is the link of His magnificent sacrifice of His only begotten son. The brutality of that sacrifice chills my flesh, my blood. This need for violence as a path to grace is something I have huge problems with. I contemplate Satan's assertion that he would force humanity to worship the Father, and I see the corruption of such an idea, but it makes me wish that God had chosen an easier route for humanity's salvation. Our puny human race, His flawed yet fabulous creation, and His intense need of us -- who can comprehend it? Our salvation seems to be the center of His existence as a god, and so much of that salvation is rooted in strict obedience to His laws and eternal praise of His flawless glory. It often seems beyond human logic, all of it. Dwelling on it gives me, oy, such a headache. Better to just focus on simple gospel truths and maybe once I cross the veil I will understand the heavy stuff, or it won't be necessary to understand it because testimony will reach new heights that comes from shedding mortality. Nu?

[clackamascoug]

I like that God allows for each us to ascertain what the Gospel means to each of us, and let's us create our own curriculum based upon a few loose, and some not so loose, criteria. In the end, we will be judged according to our own paradigm, and how closely we adhered to our self taught precepts.

Me and Hop Frog might not be on the same page, but I love the fact that it doesn't matter one iota. I wish I had some of the attributes he has found on his path, although I probably wouldn't be willing to pay the price he has to obtain them.

[wuapinmon]

John Donne in his Anniversaries, credits St. Ambrose with this definition of God's glory: clara cum laude notitia.

I'd have to go back through my dissertation research, but I can almost quote a verse from the Koran (Quran) or maybe one of the Hadith collections that I cannot find googling that says something like, "God's glory [or maybe righteousness] does not increase due to the actions of men."