For the Strength of Youth 2012

[The Rambam]

The Lord’s standard regarding sexual purity is clear and unchanging. Do not have any sexual relations before marriage, and be completely faithful to your spouse after marriage. Satan may tempt youDo not allow the media, your peers, or others to rationalizepersuade you that sexual intimacy before marriage is acceptable when two people are in love. That. It is not true. In God’s sight, sexual sins are extremely serious because they. They defile the sacred power God has given us to create life. The prophet Alma taught that sexual sins are more serious than any other sins except murder or denying the Holy Ghost (see Alma 39:5).

The prophet Alma taught no such thing. This is an outright lie, as condoned by DC 19. This "milk" has been taught by many, including Elder Holland in "Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments".

I wonder what the real motivation is to control sexuality so tightly. Maybe it is the wisdom of the ages telling us that kids born out of wedlock are in greater danger of becoming marginalized or that emotional damage results from sex too freely engaged in. Or maybe it is only a vestige of the patriarchal control exerted in primitive polygamist societies, most commonly now seen in nature.

Whatever the reason, it certainly isn't because it is the sin next to murder. This is just crazy talk. But effective, so expect to keep hearing the lie.

[ERCougar]

The prophet Alma taught no such thing. This is an outright lie, as condoned by DC 19. This "milk" has been taught by many, including Elder Holland in "Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments".

I wonder what the real motivation is to control sexuality so tightly. Maybe it is the wisdom of the ages telling us that kids born out of wedlock are in greater danger of becoming marginalized or that emotional damage results from sex too freely engaged in. Or maybe it is only a vestige of the patriarchal control exerted in primitive polygamist societies, most commonly now seen in nature.

Whatever the reason, it certainly isn't because it is the sin next to murder. This is just crazy talk. But effective, so expect to keep hearing the lie.

While I agree with you (I can think of a whole lot of sins that I would be higher on the list--child abuse, for one?) and I don't think anyone else really believes it either, I'm curious about your reasoning out of Alma's apparent clarity on this.

[pelagius]

While I agree with you (I can think of a whole lot of sins that I would be higher on the list--child abuse, for one?) and I don't think anyone else really believes it either, I'm curious about your reasoning out of Alma's apparent clarity on this.

It is a fairly common reading in certain circles (i.e. theologically liberal Mormon circles) these days to argue that Alma is referring to Corianton forsaking the ministry rather than his sexual sins. Alma keeps the issue of Corianton's ministry and his sexual conduct closely connected so there is some space to argue for the "forsaking the ministry" thing.

[Pheidippides]

It is a fairly common reading in certain circles (i.e. theologically liberal Mormon circles) these days to argue that Alma is referring to Corianton forsaking the ministry rather than his sexual sins. Alma keeps the issue of Corianton's ministry and his sexual conduct closely connected so there is some space to argue for the "forsaking the ministry" thing.

I definitely think you can read it both ways (I looked it up this afternoon to see if I agreed with Rambam). I think for a people (and by that, I mean society in general at the time, not just Mormons) looking for ways to make sex taboo, it s the reading that would be most obvious.

[The Rambam]

While I agree with you (I can think of a whole lot of sins that I would be higher on the list--child abuse, for one?) and I don't think anyone else really believes it either, I'm curious about your reasoning out of Alma's apparent clarity on this.

"These things [plural] are an abomination" Alma says. "Because of your example" the Zoramites will not believe.

The sin next in seriousness to causing physical death is to cause spiritual death. The sin next to murder is not touching your girlfriend's boobies at the drive in. Or even parenting a precious child out of wedlock.

The amazing thing is that we don't know if Corianton even caught sweet Izzy and partook of her illicit fruitiness. He might not have caught her, or she might not have been interested when he did catch up. Alma never even says Corianton broke the law of chastity--only that he was a prideful and boastful boy who left the mission field chasing Isabel. That bad example turned the Zoramites off from accepting the gospel taught by Alma. You have to assume a chastity violation--and why would Isabel take off if she and Corianton were love-birds? I don't know if Corianton violated the law of chastity, and neither do any of us. I do know that Alma thought that the Zoramites did not accept the gospel because of Corianton's bad example.

And it should be noted that Corianton spent the rest of his life making up for it. If Corianton had not gone off to teach the gospel to the people that went north, the Book of Mormon says he would have gotten the plates and we would be reading the book of Corianton after the book of Alma instead of the book of Helaman. He ended up being one of the great church leaders of his day.

[pelagius]

I definitely think you can read it both ways (I looked it up this afternoon to see if I agreed with Rambam).

I think that's probably fair. Personally, I would suggest that we need to think about a reading that sees the combination of the two things (forsaking the ministry and sexual sin) as a particularly severe combination. I think there is a reason why Alma never separates the two issues. Thus, I think it is probably a mistake to see sexual sin in isolation as falling under the gravity that Alma condemns the overall Coriantum situation.

[Pheidippides]

"These things [plural] are an abomination" Alma says. "Because of your example" the Zoramites will not believe.

The sin next in seriousness to causing physical death is to cause spiritual death. The sin next to murder is not touching your girlfriend's boobies at the drive in. Or even parenting a precious child out of wedlock.

The amazing thing is that we don't know if Corianton even caught sweet Izzy and partook of her illicit fruitiness. He might not have caught her, or she might not have been interested when he did catch up. Alma never even says Corianton broke the law of chastity--only that he was a prideful and boastful boy who left the mission field chasing Isabel. That bad example turned the Zoramites off from accepting the gospel taught by Alma. You have to assume a chastity violation--and why would Isabel take off if she and Corianton were love-birds? I don't know if Corianton violated the law of chastity, and neither do any of us. I do know that Alma thought that the Zoramites did not accept the gospel because of Corianton's bad example.

And it should be noted that Corianton spent the rest of his life making up for it. If Corianton had not gone off to teach the gospel to the people that went north, the Book of Mormon says he would have gotten the plates and we would be reading the book of Corianton after the book of Alma instead of the book of Helaman. He ended up being one of the great church leaders of his day.

I'm reading this now and the more I see the more I tend to agree. See verse 11, for example, where Alma laments about the Zoramites that saw Corianton's bad example and didn't believe on Alma's word. This is followed by a rejoinder to forsake seeking after things of this world and return to missionary service, along with several more instances of this in the next couple of chapters. The entire bit about the harlot Isabel looks like an aside.

[Pheidippides]

I think that's probably fair. Personally, I would suggest that we need to think about a reading that sees the combination of the two things (forsaking the ministry and sexual sins) as a particularly severe combination. I think there is a reason why Alma never separates the two issues. Thus, I think it is probably a mistake to see sexual sin in isolation as falling under the gravity that Alma condemns the overall Coriantum situation.

I think it's more than that. I think the sexual sins are a stand-in for seeking after things of the world; after you've been called to the work, you don't turn your back on it and seek after carnal things, whether those carnal things are sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, what have you.

It's a far more nuanced reading, and a far more difficult one. It's easy to say that you've not fornicated and therefore are good. It's a much more difficult introspection to see if you've forsaken the work to which you've been called

[Joe Public]

The sin next in seriousness to causing physical death is to cause spiritual death.

Bringing up D&C 64:9 in one of these Alma/Corianton discussions can lead to some interesting conversation.

[TripletDaddy]

A liberal but fair reading would extrapolate "these things" to refer to all the things Alma had outlined in the first verses of chapter 39. Rambam says Alma teaches "no such thing" regarding sexual impurity, which strikes me as equally indefensible as saying that Alma is limiting his condemnation to sexual sin.

Alma does reference going after a harlot and lustful eyes. How does Rambam completely exclude sexual sin from Alma's discourse? Perhaps I am misunderstanding his post?

[ERCougar]

A liberal but fair reading would extrapolate "these things" to refer to all the things Alma had outlined in the first verses of chapter 39. Rambam says Alma teaches "no such thing" regarding sexual impurity, which strikes me as equally indefensible as saying that Alma is limiting his condemnation to sexual sin.

Alma does reference going after a harlot and lustful eyes. How does Rambam completely exclude sexual sin from Alma's discourse? Perhaps I am misunderstanding his post?

I think I'm asking the same thing as DDD here, but if not, here's my question:
Verse 2 - he talks about boasting. Verse 3 - "this is not all" implies a different, more serious sin, and he goes on to specify: 1) forsake the ministry and 2) "go...after the harlot Isabel". I think we can assume there was a law of chastity violation--she's a harlot. So the sin next to murder is either 1 or 2, or a combination of both. But verse 9 admonishes to "go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in these things". Surely, the phrase "lusts of your eyes" implies sexual sin, no?

I want Rambam to be right because I think this is one of the more ridiculous teachings out there, but I think that reading is more forced and awkward. Maybe Alma was exaggerating a bit, trying to make a point, a la Elder Holland in his talk? Surely neither one of them would argue adultery is worse than child abuse but they might use hyperbole to get a point across?

[TripletDaddy]

The question i have isn't whether Alma is talking about sexual sin, ministry, or some combo, but why we feel compelled to "rank" sins. Using my limited life experience, I have to think that Alma is taking some license to teach an important point, as opposed to speaking literally, because when I'm at the judgment bar, I'd rather be facing a charge of petting or boob touching or lusting than beating my wife, beating my kids, kidnapping, and probably other stuff.

[Pheidippides]

The question i have isn't whether Alma is talking about sexual sin, ministry, or some combo, but why we feel compelled to "rank" sins. Using my limited life experience, I have to think that Alma is taking some license to teach an important point, as opposed to speaking literally, because when I'm at the judgment bar, I'd rather be facing a charge of petting or boob touching or lusting than beating my wife, beating my kids, kidnapping, and probably other stuff.

I'm admittedly on the Rambam side of the reading here, but I think you touch on the larger point which has already been mentioned in this thread: Alma's entire message was "hey, repent and be better, and let's go preach!". That's it. It reads to me like a "don't beat yourself up over this too much, you've screwed up, let's do better" speech (Alma even tells him to not dwell on this stuff too much). Admittedly we're not seeing the whole picture but I don't get a sense of "let's punish!" here. I don't get a sense of that anywhere in the scriptures, if truth be told; once the change of heart happens, it's about embracing Jesus and moving forward.

The only place I see punitive discipline is in Church History and the resulting legacy current practice. Maybe this now belongs in Dwight Schr-ute's thread.

[CardiacCoug]

This is an interesting statement. I wonder how "behavior" is being defined in this circumstance? It seems like this can be viewed very broadly...

Agreed that homosexual behavior can be viewed very broadly.

I would say that active participation in a few recent CUF threads (e.g. Dress Shirts, Cookie Recipes, The Official Soup Thread, whatever thread was about how to do the laundry/ironing) should certainly be considered a violation.

[The Rambam]

The question i have isn't whether Alma is talking about sexual sin, ministry, or some combo, but why we feel compelled to "rank" sins. Using my limited life experience, I have to think that Alma is taking some license to teach an important point, as opposed to speaking literally, because when I'm at the judgment bar, I'd rather be facing a charge of petting or boob touching or lusting than beating my wife, beating my kids, kidnapping, and probably other stuff.

The only place ranking sins makes sense is when talking about sins that cause physical death, sins that cause spiritual death, and all the rest of sindom.

Maybe Corianton did get jiggy with Izzy. But if he did, it isn't the jiggy alone that is the subject of Alma's wrath. It is the effect it had on the Zoramites. If Corianton had looted the Rameumptum treasury and made off with the treasure, the result would have also been the sin next to murder.

In other words, the sin next to murder does not have to be related to sex. It has to do with lust in this instance, but other sins, leading to others rejection of the gospel, would also qualify.

In my wife's mission in Holland a missionary got a wild hair and ran off to the red light district in Amsterdam and hired a whore. He claimed that when the door closed, he didn't go through with it--they just sat and talked for about an hour. My wife believes him. He was sent home anyway. If his investigators knew he went and hired a prostitute, they probably would not have taken the Mormon message as seriously. It really didn't matter whether his willy got wet or not. True story.

This might also be true for Corianton--or they might have engaged in a kama sutra marathon. I hope it was the latter. If he is going to get pegged with it for the duration of the last dispensation, I hope he at least he got to enjoy the moment.