Academic/historical study of Mormonism and testimony

[TexTechCoug]

It seems like many CUFers used to be believers who at some point totally quit believing or now ascribe to some very watered down amorphous version of Mormonism.

My question is, how many of us have or had some type of strong spiritual witness of the BoM, JS, and/or the Gospel in general that wilted in the light of historical accounts of JS or DNA evidence? At what point did the personal experience fold in deference to what you considered overwhelming fact?

What was that experience like?

[TexTechCoug]

Crickets chirping

Easier question. FOr those that are out, did you ever have a full on believer type testimony or did you always have doubts?

My brother fell into second category prior to becoming a full blown atheist after a mission, temple marriage, and raising his kids as Mormons for 7 years.

[CardiacCoug]

I'll bite -- I hate seeing a post like this with no responses even though I don't think the question applies to me for a couple of reasons.

I never had a strong spiritual witness and always had doubts not just about Mormonism but about the existence of God generally. Belief in God always struck me a lot like belief in Santa Claus -- just never made much sense. But living a life based on Christlike principles always made a lot of sense and I really like the Church community and teachings about Christlike, responsible living.

Too bad about your brother, TTCoug. I think it can be traumatic for families and marriages (and kids) when people feel like they need to make an extreme course correction out of Mormonism.

[ERCougar]

I've always wondered about the 'one true church' idea and I've always had doubts about God (really...who hasn't?), but I used to believe in the literalness of the book of Mormon and in the divine calling of the prophet much more firmly than i do now. The first instance where I had the thought that maybe the church wasn't true was pretty disorienting. As that thought became more predominant, the disorientation increased, but at the same time, my mind cleared up substantially. Also, a sense of freedom--that I could believe or reject anything I chose to and that I didn't have to continually suppress questions or really, my reason, in order to stay in line with whatever I felt I 'should' believe. Yes, I can think of experiences I would have referred to as 'spiritual' in my past that seemed to confirm the veracity of the church, but I'm much more skeptical of those types of experiences now. I was never particularly prone to spiritual experiences anyway.

[ERCougar]

Too bad about your brother, TTCoug. I think it can be traumatic for families and marriages (and kids) when people feel like they need to make an extreme course correction out of Mormonism.

It certainly can be traumatic, but much of this trauma is self-induced by the loved ones. Much could be avoided by patiently waiting things out. A difference in religious belief doesn't need to break up a family. Additionally, he's changed once, who's to say he won't change back. Personal belief is very fluid.

[Pheidippides]

It certainly can be traumatic, but much of this trauma is self-induced by the loved ones. Much could be avoided by patiently waiting things out. A difference in religious belief doesn't need to break up a family. Additionally, he's changed once, who's to say he won't change back. Personal belief is very fluid.

Agreed. I'm not an atheist, but I have gone through some of this and my wife making it clear that her relationship with me is more important than her relationship with the church, or, more precisely, her relationship with my relationship to the church, has made a huge difference. I have someone with whom to share thoughts without judgment and that has helped me work through my own issues without that much of a feeling of isolation.

[Jacob]

A parent has a very large influence over what a child believes about religion. However, the parent's teaching, encouraging, etc. have little effect on how that child views religion and spirituality as an adult. Sure, the parenting style will have a significant effect on whether the adult son or daughter identifies as the same religion as the parent. But the specific religions beliefs and views of the adult son or daughter will not largely be the result of the child's upbringing. Each person will eventually form his or her own views.

Relating this to the question at hand, it may not make much difference whether a person was all-in or a less committed believer as a child. Each person's views will change as they mature and move away from the sphere of parental influence. The truest of believers may end up a non-practicing Mormon or an atheist while the youthful fornicator often ends up a devoted believer. I've certainly seen many examples of the teenage rebels becoming more faithful than their seminary president counterparts.

[Northwestcoug]

Looking back, I've had very few spiritual experiences that I would say relate to the truthfulness of the gospel. These testify to the goodness of doctrines or teachings of the church, rather than to the historical issues. I specifically remember feeling very good when GBH talked at a symposium about Joseph Smith. When significant doubts arose, I fell back on that experience for many years. It never erased those doubts, but it helped me abide.

I had doubts about the historicity of the Book of Mormon and God's approval of questionable practices ever since I can remember, and I've never had a spiritual confirmation of those. I just ignored those and went my way. Like so many other people, I put them on a shelf. So now all those issues, which I don't have a spiritual confirmation of, are now weighing heavily on me. So what has been my experience dealing with this? Thoughts of depression, anger, grief, fear. My emotions have run the gamut. Could I have done something to prevent this? I guess concentrating on the more spiritual elements of the gospel could have helped me ignore doubts longer. But I strongly believe that my experience would have been inevitable either way.

I don't think any rational person would deny that all these issues are very significant, and potentially strike at the heart of what Mormonism has taught as gospel truth.

[Ma'ake]

I grew up thinking I believed in the Church, and wanting to believe. I pretty much bought into it, was convinced the 2nd Coming would indeed occur before the year 2000, just like my mentors told me.

But when I was a teenager I was really, really bugged about the blacks & the priesthood issue, as well as the Lamanites changing skin color if they were righteous. I had Navajo friends and this just didn't seem right, like there was a lot more to the story.

Ultimately I quit because I simply couldn't buy those racial aspects, and really struggled in my early 20s with no religion. "If the Mormon Church is bogus, then is any church true? Is there even a God? Or do we just go 'poof' and that's it?" It was a wrenching time, anxiety about the fundamental question in life is no fun.

Then I read a book about people who had gone through the so-called "near death experience", and it brought me tremendous relief in two ways:

1. There is a God, a Supreme Being, a Higher Power, with a very basic & powerful directive for this life: Learn to love others. "Life After Life" was exceptionally powerful, yet simple, and remarkably consistent between different people who had died in a wide variety of ways. (I realize there are numerous explanations for the NDE phenomenon. I guess you never really know, in things of faith.)

2. Among the experiences, God didn't instruct people he was sending back to mortal life "when you get back, look up in the phone book and find the nearest Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and go there!!!" There was no such directive, which I had figured might be the case, based on what I was led to believe growing up.

I was free!!! FREE!!! It was the most liberating moment in my life.

Ever since I don't feel guilty about church things or whether I might be screwing up my eternal relations, and the whole "outer darkness" boogey man is long gone.

The church has changed a lot since we parted ways, I think mostly for the better. But I've explored many other valuable spiritual traditions in the meantime, none of which I take too literally or seriously, but together they help form a mosaic of faith that is far stronger than I had as a teenager.

It has been confirmational to see the explosion of information about the LDS church on the Internet. I had some anger to work through, and explored many sources of information, and apologetic responses. The amount of information is staggering. I was hung up on blacks & the priesthood and Lamanites, and left in 1981 or so, and had no idea of the massive catalog of other issues. The sheer weight of all the troubling topics is staggering. The LDS church is undergoing a rapid & substantial change in ideology and understanding, something it took the Catholics hundreds of years to come to grips with.

I have no desire to "save" Mormons from an ideology I consider to be bogus, I see much good done by the Church. I even have a son on a mission, which I fully support as being a good path for him.

But I'm too experienced now to go back. That genie won't go back in the bottle.

[YOhio]

I even have a son on a mission, which I fully support as being a good path for him.

Wow. It seems like just yesterday you were posting about his conversion. Where is he serving?

[Non Sequitur]

During my pre-mission interview with the bishop, he asked me if I had a testimony of the gospel and of Joseph Smith. I told him not really. He told me to accept it on faith and go on the mission anyway and that I would eventually gain a testimony on my mission. I took his advice and went on the mission, but never gained a testimony. After the mission I kept accepting things on faith, getting married in the temple and continuing to attend Church. At some point I realized the testimony was not going to come. I think my experience is probably pretty common.

[ERCougar]

During my pre-mission interview with the bishop, he asked me if I had a testimony of the gospel and of Joseph Smith. I told him not really. He told me to accept it on faith and go on the mission anyway and that I would eventually gain a testimony on my mission. I took his advice and went on the mission, but never gained a testimony. After the mission I kept accepting things on faith, getting married in the temple and continuing to attend Church. At some point I realized the testimony was not going to come. I think my experience is probably pretty common.

This "fake it till you make it" idea is interesting and I agree that it's really common. I wonder if it's based on a translational error:

John 7:17 (KJV) - "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." This implies that one should follow the commandment first and the witness comes later.

Here's a better translation:
"Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own." (NRSV)
The idea seems to be that you make a resolution to follow God and you'll get a witness.

I stole this from an article someone linked here by Grant Hardy on biblical translations. I guess this verse is causing missionaries problems when they teach people who are actually familiar with the Bible. I have to admit that I much prefer a God who gives me an indication that what He's asking me to do is right, to one who says "Just do it. You'll understand later."

[Ma'ake]

Wow. It seems like just yesterday you were posting about his conversion. Where is he serving?

He's in Paraguay and really loving it. He's doing really, really well. I'm very proud of him.

He's definitely full of the spirit in a way I never was, which is good. He's kind of taking after my father in law, who was a Baptist pastor for 45 years.

My family is more of the "secular" type, though we have in our heritage a mix of both devout & non-religious. I hear a lot through my LDS connections about families that are split and how the non-faithful/non-active really struggle, have major problems, etc. In my family that's not really the case, everyone seems to have equal struggles and triumphs.

I do think there may be something to the "God Gene" phenomenon, where some people more easily connect and feel "the spirit" than others. My Hindu friend at work rolls her eyes when talking about her mom back in India, who goes to the temple on a daily basis and consults with the Indian astrologists about every little thing. (I'm certainly in no position to judge her mom and what she goes through.)

I'm really happy my son is doing well, and I'm happy the neighbors and various interested parties have accepted my non-hostile decision to stay independent, as it were. (Actually, when I tell them about my experience in the Shoshone sweat lodge they seem to lose enthusiasm for getting me back in the fold - "That guy is reaaaaaallly lost!!!" LOL.)

[Portland Ute]

He's in Paraguay and really loving it. He's doing really, really well. I'm very proud of him.

He's definitely full of the spirit in a way I never was, which is good. He's kind of taking after my father in law, who was a Baptist pastor for 45 years.

My family is more of the "secular" type, though we have in our heritage a mix of both devout & non-religious. I hear a lot through my LDS connections about families that are split and how the non-faithful/non-active really struggle, have major problems, etc. In my family that's not really the case, everyone seems to have equal struggles and triumphs.

I do think there may be something to the "God Gene" phenomenon, where some people more easily connect and feel "the spirit" than others. My Hindu friend at work rolls her eyes when talking about her mom back in India, who goes to the temple on a daily basis and consults with the Indian astrologists about every little thing. (I'm certainly in no position to judge her mom and what she goes through.)

I'm really happy my son is doing well, and I'm happy the neighbors and various interested parties have accepted my non-hostile decision to stay independent, as it were. (Actually, when I tell them about my experience in the Shoshone sweat lodge they seem to lose enthusiasm for getting me back in the fold - "That guy is reaaaaaallly lost!!!" LOL.)

Ma'ake, you've always been one of may favorite posters on any board. Your contributions to this thread are awesome. I love your live and let live approach to people and religion.

It's been interesting getting to "know" this side of you here on CUF.

I grow to like CUF more and more every day.

Non sequitor's experience is haunting to me. I appreciate you sharing it.

[Ma'ake]

Non sequitor's experience is haunting to me. I appreciate you sharing it.

I also suspect his experience is fairly common. Organized religion is not for everyone, in my experience, but that shouldn't mean folks who find it hard to connect with the divine at church are destined to become bitter, unfulfilled haters. There are so many experiences that yield insights toward enlightenment. This summer I've been hiking on Sundays, getting to progressively higher peaks. Mother Nature helps me see beyond myself and my immediate social context, the noise of perception and opinion.

On the top of a 12,000 peak, at sunset (and considering the oxygen depravation!), you can get a different glimpse of what it's all about. I certainly understand how people can reject religion and become atheists, but in my case my belief in something beyond had been enhanced.