On Love and Lying

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  • UtahDan
    *
    • Nov 2008
    • 14496

    #1

    On Love and Lying

    Not trying to take over the foyer today but I have been meaning to share this article for a while and keep forgetting. The article below was presented at a conference at Duke earlier this year at Richard Bushman's request, apparently Grant Hardy was there as well (not sure if he presented). If you don't know Grant Hardy, stop what you are doing and click the link. He is a very important voice in Mormonism.

    Anyway, Jared Andersen (who is a Mormon Bart Ehrman protege) presented this paper entitled "On Love and Lying: Integrity, Identify and Interpretation in a Pluralistic Mormon Culture." I know Jared's work pretty well and he is very practically oriented towards "what works" and what is "good." And he thinks that Mormonism provides a good framework for a lot of that.

    Here are some thoughts on navigating your unorthodoxy in an orthodox setting:


    I will turn now to how I apply this perspective in my own life. I actually take a very practical approach to this issue. This is my experience; but I do not desire to export it whole cloth to others. I accept as valid all approaches that work for people, from taking everything at face value, to being reassured by apologists, to tackling primary sourcesand figuring out what you believe. Each of us must forge our own world view. My main concern is to encourage a world view that meets spiritual needs but also minimizes vulnerability to new information. The rhetoric of “just ignore disconfirming information be quiet and obey” simply does not resonate with a generation that googles every question, that can reach millions with a blog or YouTube video, and voices its opinion on everything from political debates to American Idol and advertisements.

    I try to share information with people based on their desires and preparation. When a member of my ward told me he wanted to learn more about religion, I asked him whether he wanted the Institute approach, or academic approach, and explained each. He replied Institute, and I respect that. In another memorable experience, at the end of missionary exchanges I was having a discussion with one companion and the other Elder said,“Brother Anderson, if what you have is the gift of knowledge, I don’t want it!” I remain realistic of the fact that for the majority of believers, the details simply do not matter. I don’t want to know how my car works; I just want it to get me from point A to point B. I would never want to deconstruct some one's religion so they can’t drive it.

    In order to be as honest as possible, I speak with extreme precision. Instead of “Moroni wrote” I can introduce an idea with “In the Book of Moroni we read…” I bear my testimony about how beautiful I find the idea of the Atonement and how I am grateful for the ability to improve my character because of the power of God in my life. I bear my testimony that the Book of Mormon is inspired of God. I do not bring up the fact that I do not necessarily have a testimony of the Atonement, or that I have doubts about the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I speak in such a way that most assume I am agreeing with them, but if people want to hear more about my views, they can ask me and I can explain one-on-one if appropriate.

    I would go as far as to say that as a loving last resort, even lying could be justified. When neither precise communication nor tactful silence is an option, and a full honest answer would be destructive to the faith of the listener, I would support a “noble lie”. Some will see this as sophistry or disingenuous, but I see it as prioritizing love and valuing thefunctionality of religion over full or even representative disclosure in every smallestquestion. I would also offer the reminder that we negotiate our communication and identities constantly, though we would prefer to avoid the term “lying”. And rightly so since this negotiation of proper sharing is a natural and necessary part of relationships, not to be cavalierly branded as deception. On one hand, we navitage greater or lesser lies and loyalties and integrities constantly, whether we realize it or not. At the same time, it is worth noting that with explicit lies, even justified ones, something is inevitably lost.

    Here is how that works for me. I see this as more translation to the world view and expectations of the listener than outright deception. Our relationships constantly confrontus with a “hierarchy of truths”. Though we have all sorts of thoughts and views, still we censor ourselves based on our love for our spouses, or our desire to keep our jobs for example. One vital balance to this approach is we must be sure we are molding the truth out of love, not the desire to deceive or escape consequences. In order to have integrity, we should also feel peaceful with the prospect of explaining the full truth and previous careful sharing of it if the situation demanded it. It is tragic when a spouse or Church cannot accept the truth of our views or natures. But do we then need to abandon the marriage or community? Owning our choice to prioritize relationships over disclosure when necessary can bring peace to painful dissonance. I would add that it is tremendously beneficial to have some individuals or a community where you can be fully honest about your views and identity. Ideally your closest loved ones should be in this inner circle, but either way this is where internet communities can literally be a godsend.
    Since I know some of you are navigating these very waters, I thought this might be helpful to you. Thoughts are welcome.

    Last edited by UtahDan; 07-20-2011, 09:32 AM.
  • ERCougar
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2008
    • 10978

    #2
    I like that. Thanks. I listened to Grant and his wife's podcast on Mormon Stories and subsequently bought both of his BOM books. Still working my way through them but I'd highly recommend both the podcast and the parts I've read so far.

    I really like the car analogy, mostly because I know nothing about cars and don't really care to, so I can relate. That will help me in those times when I want to take my head in my hands and think "how can you not care about this stuff???"
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

    Comment

    • Sleeping in EQ
      Philosopher of Men
      • Nov 2008
      • 4188

      #3
      Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
      Not trying to take over the foyer today but I have been meaning to share this article for a while and keep forgetting. The article below was presented at a conference at Duke earlier this year at Richard Bushman's request, apparently Grant Hardy was there as well (not sure if he presented). If you don't know Grant Hardy, stop what you are doing and click the link. He is a very important voice in Mormonism.

      Anyway, Jared Andersen (who is a Mormon Bart Ehrman protege) presented this paper entitled "On Love and Lying: Integrity, Identify and Interpretation in a Pluralistic Mormon Culture." I know Jared's work pretty well and he is very practically oriented towards "what works" and what is "good." And he thinks that Mormonism provides a good framework for a lot of that.

      Here are some thoughts on navigating your unorthodoxy in an orthodox setting:




      Since I know some of you are navigating these very waters, I thought this might be helpful to you. Thoughts are welcome.

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/58749510/L...=&autodown=pdf
      I've been in this mode for years. I appreciate when I find someone else who is in it too.
      We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

      Comment

      • taekwondave
        Junior Member
        • Feb 2011
        • 1160

        #4
        Originally posted by Sleeping in EQ View Post
        I've been in this mode for years. I appreciate when I find someone else who is in it too.
        Me too. I love lying

        Comment

        • taekwondave
          Junior Member
          • Feb 2011
          • 1160

          #5
          No, actually I really do. Come on, who doesn't lie? You know what we call people who always say what they really think? Assholes. We always adapt what we say for the situation. I'm not sure how lying got such a bad rap in the first place. People claim it's one of the ten commandments, but that's simply not true.

          The "commandment" reads:

          "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

          It never says you can't do so FOR thy neighbor. It also never says you can't do it to protect yourself or others from shame or judgment. It simply says you can't bear false witness against your neighbor. Oversimplifying that to mean "never say something that isn't so" or "never spin things in your favor" is just overkill if you ask me. The idea is to not blame people for things they didn't do. Don't make shit up about people and probably don't spread rumors about them either. Seems the most sincere interpretation to me.

          Comment

          • Sullyute
            a day late/a dollar short
            • Jul 2010
            • 3308

            #6
            Here is how that works for me. I see this as more translation to the world view and expectations of the listener than outright deception. Our relationships constantly confrontus with a “hierarchy of truths”. Though we have all sorts of thoughts and views, still we censor ourselves based on our love for our spouses, or our desire to keep our jobs for example. One vital balance to this approach is we must be sure we are molding the truth out of love, not the desire to deceive or escape consequences. In order to have integrity, we should also feel peaceful with the prospect of explaining the full truth and previous careful sharing of it if the situation demanded it. It is tragic when a spouse or Church cannot accept the truth of our views or natures. But do we then need to abandon the marriage or community? Owning our choice to prioritize relationships over disclosure when necessary can bring peace to painful dissonance. I would add that it is tremendously beneficial to have some individuals or a community where you can be fully honest about your views and identity. Ideally your closest loved ones should be in this inner circle, but either way this is where internet communities can literally be a godsend.
            I find this last paragraph very interesting especially the the part I bolded. So from what I read he is saying that we should highly consider, out of love, pretending to "believe" to make our spouses happy? Just like if your wife says do these pants make my butt look big... you answer, No. If she asks if you have a testimony you say, yes. Because if you love your wife enough you go see movies or do things that you normally wouldn't and that religion or faith is not any different? You are simply making a rational choice to "believe" or be "active" out of love.
            "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

            Comment

            • UtahDan
              *
              • Nov 2008
              • 14496

              #7
              Originally posted by Sullyute View Post
              I find this last paragraph very interesting especially the the part I bolded. So from what I read he is saying that we should highly consider, out of love, pretending to "believe" to make our spouses happy? Just like if your wife says do these pants make my butt look big... you answer, No. If she asks if you have a testimony you say, yes. Because if you love your wife enough you go see movies or do things that you normally wouldn't and that religion or faith is not any different? You are simply making a rational choice to "believe" or be "active" out of love.
              I think that is sort of what he is saying. And don't actually agree when it comes to a spouse, though I think how/when that information gets shared can vary dramatically. But I do think they are ultimately owed the truth. Jared would respond by saying that that might be true for me but not for everyone. Every situation is different.

              EDIT: But to be fair to his argument, I think that he is saying only when all else fails and only from a place of love.

              Comment

              • statman
                Rabblerouser
                • Aug 2009
                • 2799

                #8
                Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                I like that. Thanks. I listened to Grant and his wife's podcast on Mormon Stories and subsequently bought both of his BOM books. Still working my way through them but I'd highly recommend both the podcast and the parts I've read so far.

                I really like the car analogy, mostly because I know nothing about cars and don't really care to, so I can relate. That will help me in those times when I want to take my head in my hands and think "how can you not care about this stuff???"
                Grant and Heather have a podcast?

                Grant's 'Readers Edition' of the BoM will change the way you read the book. If you haven't read it, you will be amazed at how different the experience is. You can actually sit down and read a hundred pages at a time - like a novel with some archaic language.

                Comment

                • marsupial
                  Mississippi Queen
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 3678

                  #9
                  I understand where Jared is coming from and I appreciate what he is saying, but ultimately, lying gets old. People you love are going to disappoint you. They are going to do things and/or believe things that go against your core values. If they are truly important to you, you will recognize their right to believe what they believe and you will love them anyway.

                  As far as spouses go, I agree with UD in that your spouse should be the one person you can be totally honest with. However, I think going through the motions for the sake of your family and your marriage is a worthy cause and perhaps the better path to take in most circumstances.
                  What's to explain? It's a bunch of people, most of whom you've never met, who are just as likely to be homicidal maniacs as they are to be normal everyday people, with whom you share the minutiae of your everyday life. It's totally normal, and everyone would understand.
                  -Teenage Dirtbag

                  Comment

                  • ERCougar
                    Junior Member
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 10978

                    #10
                    Originally posted by statman View Post
                    Grant and Heather have a podcast?

                    Grant's 'Readers Edition' of the BoM will change the way you read the book. If you haven't read it, you will be amazed at how different the experience is. You can actually sit down and read a hundred pages at a time - like a novel with some archaic language.
                    They were interviewed on mormon stories. Id find you the link if I weren't lazy and on my phone. Its fairly recent and should apart on the mormon stories homepage.

                    I agree about the readers edition...it changes the experience.
                    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                    Comment

                    • Sullyute
                      a day late/a dollar short
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 3308

                      #11
                      Originally posted by statman View Post
                      Grant and Heather have a podcast?

                      Grant's 'Readers Edition' of the BoM will change the way you read the book. If you haven't read it, you will be amazed at how different the experience is. You can actually sit down and read a hundred pages at a time - like a novel with some archaic language.
                      Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                      They were interviewed on mormon stories. Id find you the link if I weren't lazy and on my phone. Its fairly recent and should apart on the mormon stories homepage.

                      I agree about the readers edition...it changes the experience.
                      Here is the link to the podcast;

                      Experience a community where your doubts and questions are valued and understood. We are dedicated to providing a place to explore your faith, share your experiences, and find the support you need during your faith journey. 250-251: Grant & Heather Hardy - Book of Mormon Scholarship


                      How is their book any different than the original book of mormon which didn't have all of the verses and headings, or is it? Is there any commentary?
                      "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

                      Comment

                      • ERCougar
                        Junior Member
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 10978

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Sullyute View Post
                        Here is the link to the podcast;

                        Experience a community where your doubts and questions are valued and understood. We are dedicated to providing a place to explore your faith, share your experiences, and find the support you need during your faith journey. 250-251: Grant & Heather Hardy - Book of Mormon Scholarship


                        How is their book any different than the original book of mormon which didn't have all of the verses and headings, or is it? Is there any commentary?
                        He wrote a book that is more of a commentary that I have in my kindle app. It's really fascinating and very different from any other commentaries on the bom that I've seen.

                        The readers edition is very similar in style to the more modern renditions of the bible-logical paragraphs rather than verse and chapter breakdowns. it's also much clearer who is talking where (particularly some of the sermons). You wouldnr think it would affect the experience as much as it does.
                        At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                        -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                        Comment

                        • UtahDan
                          *
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 14496

                          #13
                          Originally posted by marsupial View Post
                          I understand where Jared is coming from and I appreciate what he is saying, but ultimately, lying gets old. People you love are going to disappoint you. They are going to do things and/or believe things that go against your core values. If they are truly important to you, you will recognize their right to believe what they believe and you will love them anyway.

                          As far as spouses go, I agree with UD in that your spouse should be the one person you can be totally honest with. However, I think going through the motions for the sake of your family and your marriage is a worthy cause and perhaps the better path to take in most circumstances.
                          I think the whole thing is taxing. I've likened it to a burden that you have to carry. No question that smart people can come up with clever and elaborate ways to make the situation tolerable, particularly when the costs of not doing so are high. My observation is that there is a lot of sadness that ultimately accompanies the carrying of that burden (where even if you are not lying you are investing a lot of effort in nuancing and self-censoring) and people find themselves caught between that and the consequences of unbelief.

                          Lots of very smart people are trying to build a better mousetrap right now. Some of them by trying to come up with ways to make that burden lighter (as here) others are hoping to reform the community to make unbelievers more welcome. I'm not optimistic about their prospects of success long term but we all have to fight the best fight we can.

                          Comment

                          • Sullyute
                            a day late/a dollar short
                            • Jul 2010
                            • 3308

                            #14
                            Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                            I think the whole thing is taxing. I've likened it to a burden that you have to carry. No question that smart people can come up with clever and elaborate ways to make the situation tolerable, particularly when the costs of not doing so are high. My observation is that there is a lot of sadness that ultimately accompanies the carrying of that burden (where even if you are not lying you are investing a lot of effort in nuancing and self-censoring) and people find themselves caught between that and the consequences of unbelief.

                            Lots of very smart people are trying to build a better mousetrap right now. Some of them by trying to come up with ways to make that burden lighter (as here) others are hoping to reform the community to make unbelievers more welcome. I'm not optimistic about their prospects of success long term but we all have to fight the best fight we can.
                            As a slightly below average guy, I am really bolstered by the idea that these very smart people are not just walking away but trying to make it a better place. With this in mind, I thought this comment by Jared Anderson was spot on:

                            ...this is where internet communities can literally be a godsend.
                            Last edited by Sullyute; 07-20-2011, 02:35 PM. Reason: spelling
                            "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

                            Comment

                            • Northwestcoug
                              Cocked and Loaded
                              • May 2011
                              • 17950

                              #15
                              Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                              I think the whole thing is taxing. I've likened it to a burden that you have to carry. No question that smart people can come up with clever and elaborate ways to make the situation tolerable, particularly when the costs of not doing so are high. My observation is that there is a lot of sadness that ultimately accompanies the carrying of that burden (where even if you are not lying you are investing a lot of effort in nuancing and self-censoring) and people find themselves caught between that and the consequences of unbelief.

                              Lots of very smart people are trying to build a better mousetrap right now. Some of them by trying to come up with ways to make that burden lighter (as here) others are hoping to reform the community to make unbelievers more welcome. I'm not optimistic about their prospects of success long term but we all have to fight the best fight we can.

                              My burden is knowing that I'm a better person because I grew up in the church, but now feeling deceived after a couple of decades of wholly believing the official church story. I've had to work through some anger coming to grips with inconvenient truths. I'm at the process of pruning away the teachings that I can't accept anymore. I'm not sure what I'm going to be left with. But I feel my burden is compounded when I regard my children who are fully active in the church youth programs. I've already had to discuss many inconsistencies with my oldest daughter, and I expect to do the same with the rest. My first priority is to get everything out in the open now, so they don't have a severe faith crisis when they're older. It's sad that I have to be the one to tell them the complete truth on many things, but they are not getting it from any official channel.

                              My family is happy in the church. But I can't help feel sometimes we could be just as happy without having to continually justifying all the inconsistencies in the church.
                              "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                              "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                              - SeattleUte

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