How important is social acceptance at church?

[Soccermom]

I often hear in the LDS church that even if you are offended or feel slighted, the Gospel is true, so you just have to suck it up. But what if going to church causes someone with a testimony mental anguish and constantly leaves them feeling worse than if they had just stayed home because they don't fit into the "mold" and leadership emphasizes "fitting into the mold" so to speak? Are they really in the wrong for staying home? What if you have tried to talk to other members about how the slighted people feel and these other members just harp on them for acting like a victim and quoting the Bednar talk about how if they are offended it is their fault? Why would anyone want to go to church under those circumstances?

BTW, I am referring to good friends of mine, and I can somewhat empathize with them, as I don't exactly get a warm fuzzy feeling at church very often either.

[LA Ute]

I often hear in the LDS church that even if you are offended or feel slighted, the Gospel is true, so you just have to suck it up. But what if going to church causes someone with a testimony mental anguish and constantly leaves them feeling worse than if they had just stayed home because they don't fit into the "mold" and leadership emphasizes "fitting into the mold" so to speak? Are they really in the wrong for staying home? What if you have tried to talk to other members about how the slighted people feel and these other members just harp on them for acting like a victim and quoting the Bednar talk about how if they are offended it is their fault? Why would anyone want to go to church under those circumstances?

BTW, I am referring to good friends of mine, and I can somewhat empathize with them, as I don't exactly get a warm fuzzy feeling at church very often either.

I think it's incredibly important and that wards should work very hard to make everyone who wants to attend feel welcome. That's how I read Mosiah 18:8-10. I don't see any defensible alternative view. (I'm sure that comment will draw some defenses.)

[Moliere]

IMO, which is limited, people who struggle to be socially accepted at church struggle to be socially accepted other places. In fact, I've seen a lot more acceptance at church for certain individuals that one wouldn't find at school, work, or anywhere else.

[LA Ute]

IMO, which is limited, people who struggle to be socially accepted at church struggle to be socially accepted other places. In fact, I've seen a lot more acceptance at church for certain individuals that one wouldn't find at school, work, or anywhere else.

I think you are right. But I don't think soccermom is talking about people who generally have a hard time fitting in everywhere they go. (Those people should still be more welcome at church than other places, as you seem to suggest.)

[Moliere]

I think you are right. But I don't think soccermom is talking about people who generally have a hard time fitting in everywhere they go. (Those people should still be more welcome at church than other places, as you seem to suggest.)

Well, I know even unorthodox members that fit in because they aren't socially backwards but you're probably right that SM is going somewhere else with this.

[frank ryan]

it is a big reason i dont go. i'm 33, liberal, poor. i don't fit in

[TripletDaddy]

it is a big reason i dont go. i'm 33, liberal, poor. i don't fit in

The truth is that there are more people in your congregation that feel the way you feel re: social issues, but we are the silent minority. It is not a good place to be out of lockstep. I think that is why this place is so important to so many people. It is a safe place to turn and express yourself. It is probably why some dislike the vibe here....since they are in sync at Church, the dialogue here seems foreign or overly negative to them.

I wish we could de -politicize Church but it is impossible to do because you can't control what everyone says.

[Soccermom]

IMO, which is limited, people who struggle to be socially accepted at church struggle to be socially accepted other places. In fact, I've seen a lot more acceptance at church for certain individuals that one wouldn't find at school, work, or anywhere else.

The person I'm referring to is generally an outgoing individual who has been able to make and keep friends in the other areas of his life. The difficulty, in my ward, is that he doesn't necessarily conform to the "accepted" version of a church member. What I mean is that he doesn't wear white shirts every week, he doesn't have the time to attend every church function, he doesn't cry during testimony meeting, his wife <<gasp>> works (outside the home), and, basically, doesn't pretend to be something he's not. He even openly admitted to going to a football (on Sunday! and with friends!).

But, because he is a bit of a non-conformist, people have excluded him (and his family) from most social gatherings outside of church and have actively stated they don't want them there. He and his family are not perfect, but they are good people. They have gone out of their way to help others on a number of occasions. They feel like outsiders in the ward despite efforts to fit in. I just wonder how much someone should endure before lack of social acceptance becomes a valid reason not to attend.

I think the unfortunate thing is that those members who are seen as the "leaders" and have all the "big" callings (in their minds callings matter, not mine), are also the most self righteous ones in my particular ward and lead others to follow their bad example of exclusion because unfortunately a lot of members follow these leaders without thinking for themselves. Thus, everyone I talk to about the situation seems to find a way to remove any fault from themselves and put it all back on my friends. They have tried to come to church, but get there and feel so marginalized that they don't have any desire to stay. The negative church experiences are truly hurting them and I hate seeing that stuff. I can empathize with their feelings because my own family has felt judged and unwelcome too. But, I have been able to find so many good friends outside of the ward that I could care less about being shunned or not shunned at this point. And, I always enjoy being extra kind to those who are the coldest to me because it is fun to see they way the respond and it is healthier for me to just be nice and not dwell on it.

And Moliere, I think that at times, I find the socially awkward and inept fit in better at church than anywhere else in life.

[frank ryan]

And Moliere, I think that at times, I find the socially awkward and inept fit in better at church than anywhere else in life.

they often get cool callings

[frank ryan]

The truth is that there are more people in your congregation that feel the way you feel re: social issues, but we are the silent minority. It is not a good place to be out of lockstep. I think that is why this place is so important to so many people. It is a safe place to turn and express yourself. It is probably why some dislike the vibe here....since they are in sync at Church, the dialogue here seems foreign or overly negative to them.

I wish we could de -politicize Church but it is impossible to do because you can't control what everyone says.

one of the reasons besides some spiritual experiences, that i dont leave the church completely is i would be one less voice who doesn't echo Glenn Beck or seems to have skipped over the Sermon on the Mount

[Soccermom]

I wish we could de -politicize Church but it is impossible to do because you can't control what everyone says.

Yeah, there are a few guys in my ward who, if we didn't believe in this agency stuff, would be muzzled at all church meetings. By God's own hand.

[TripletDaddy]

one of the reasons besides some spiritual experiences, that i dont leave the church completely is i would be one less voice who doesn't echo Glenn Beck or seems to have skipped over the Sermon on the Mount

fight on, brother.

I agree with both soccermom and LA Ute, but for different reasons. LA Ute speaks from the ward POV, and I believe he is correct. The ward should be about welcoming everyone. Soccer mom speaks from the individual POV and if you aren't getting much out of Church, it makes it tough to attend.

Speaking from the individual POV, I don't think it is overly critical to find social fulfillment through Church. There are other avenues, other groups. At every ward is a crapshoot, some better than others. Despite common practice within the tribe, there is no rule that requires church to be our main form of sociality. Make friends outside the ward and hang with them.

I am intrigued by bednars well known talk. When he shared it at conference, I thought it was brilliant. I still think it is but I distinctly remember noting the love the guy had in his voice when he shared it. Nowadays, the phrase seems to have been co-opted by anyone that wants to speak or act with impunity, justifying their unbecoming behavior by a lack of "intent to offend." somehow, I don't think this is what Elder Bednar had in mind when he shared his now famous edict on taken offense. It was a challenge to each of us to soften our hearts and exercise forgiveness, not a license for people to say and do whatever they want. That is what I took from it, anyway.

By the way, soccer mom, I know this thread is not about you, but you and Aristides are good kind people. I'm surprised when you share anecdotes that indicate that some may act unkindly towards your husband...one of the nicest people around.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I feel much like I am in a similar position to the person soccermom describes. Since we got shifted to a different ward we are total outcasts. ldc was put straight into YW and I was put into YM, I don't really know any of the EQ members and those I do know seem to not mesh.

As some of you may have recognized my family is a bit unconventional sometimes, and the new ward is very straight laced. I have struggled to maintain a desire to keep going from a social standpoint, I keep going because I think it helps me be a better person. I don't think there is one person in the ward that me, my wife or my kids consider a friend. It gets tougher to fight with the kids about going every week.

[smokymountainrain]

It is probably why some dislike the vibe here....since they are in sync at Church, the dialogue here seems foreign or overly negative to them.

I wish we could de -politicize Church but it is impossible to do because you can't control what everyone says.

Honestly, I'm not sure how relevant this comment will be to this discussion, but I thought it interesting, so I'll share quickly....

My wife, who is very active, maybe even mullah and definitely one who most would consider totally in sync at church, came home from church today (I didn't go - rather stayed home to be with a sleeping baby - yipee) and her first comment was "I think <insert name of EQ Pres/son-in-law of bishop> hates me". How does he feel about you?" My answer..."I couldn't care less how he feels about me, so I've never thought about it, but if I had to opine, I'd probably guess he doesn't like me much."

I was just released from the bishopric and get along great with this guy's FIL - the Bishop. One would definitely say I'm "in sync" at church, but if I cared what people think of me, I'm sure I could think of multiple people who, for the most part, don't like me very much or at least act like they aren't huge fans. Granted, in comparison with other church members, I'm uber-liberal (somewhere in the middle in comparison with most of America), but on the outside, I'm Joe-Mormon and Mrs SMR is a future General RS President.

I guess what I'm trying to say here, for those who have difficult time at church, you are not alone. Most of us face it, some on a lesser level than others, but it's there and it's not enjoyable. To be honest, if it were so bad that it caused mental anguish and left a person feeling worse than when they came, I wouldn't have even a small problem if they stopped coming. It would make me sad - it's absolutely heartbreaking to hear of such stories, but I can't blame a person for avoiding a place that makes them feel terrible, especially when I don't know how I would handle it if I were in friend of soccermom's shoes.

[falafel]

The person I'm referring to is generally an outgoing individual who has been able to make and keep friends in the other areas of his life. The difficulty, in my ward, is that he doesn't necessarily conform to the "accepted" version of a church member. What I mean is that he doesn't wear white shirts every week, he doesn't have the time to attend every church function, he doesn't cry during testimony meeting, his wife <<gasp>> works (outside the home), and, basically, doesn't pretend to be something he's not. He even openly admitted to going to a football (on Sunday! and with friends!).

I think you've just described me (and 90% of the board) and my wife. Despite that, I've never felt like I wasn't welcomed or accepted in my wards. This leads me to believe that your ward (and it sounds like HFN's ward) are just an unlucky collection of people that can't see the how the church is changing. They will, I think, be left behind as the rest of us move on. Its like the older members, now very old, who still hold on to the wacky notions that were once prevalent in the church in the 60s or 70s or earlier. You likely cannot change their views, but as time passes their voices will fade into the background. At least, I hope that's what happens.