Did Christ sweat blood?

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  • Moliere
    One man.....one pie
    • Oct 2009
    • 27820

    #1

    Did Christ sweat blood?

    I know many Mormon and Christian apologists have gone to great lengths to physically show that when someone is so "stressed" or "afflicted" that they can actually sweat blood. Well, I say great lengths but that is just what I heard in seminary along with the whole discussion on Gethsemane and wine (or was it olive?) presses. But this thread is more on the authenticity of the statement in Luke that Christ's sweat was "as great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

    The KJV of Luke 22 states:

    39And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
    40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
    41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
    42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
    43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
    44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
    45And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
    46And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
    So clearly Christ did sweat drops of blood right? According to the KJV he did, however, my NRSV has a footnote that says verses 43-44 are not found in other anciet authorities (or basically these verses aren't in the earliest reliable manuscripts).

    I found the fact that these verses might have been added to the canon at a later date by someone other than the original author(s) interesting so I did some more research. What I found was striking, at least to me. Apparently verses 43-44 break up a chiastic structure found in verses 39-46. See below:

    a And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation

    b And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast,

    c and kneeled down, and prayed,

    d Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done

    c1 And when he rose up from prayer,

    b1 and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

    a1 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation
    When you insert verses 43-44 back into the paragraph it not only breaks up the chiasmus, but the whole paragraph tends to flow much better without the verses. Anyway, I found this interesting and thought I'd share.

    Thoughts?
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf
  • old_gregg
    scaly man fish
    • Nov 2009
    • 16915

    #2
    sweating blood seems physiologically impossible. then again, so does resurrection.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

    Comment

    • Moliere
      One man.....one pie
      • Oct 2009
      • 27820

      #3
      Originally posted by camleish View Post
      sweating blood seems physiologically impossible. then again, so does resurrection.
      Right, that's a dumb argument to make for/against anything in the bible, which is why I'm focusing on the text....but you knew that.
      "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

      Comment

      • LA Ute
        Receiver of Memory
        • Nov 2008
        • 19512

        #4
        Doesn't D&C 19:18 make it pretty clear? He says his suffering caused him to "bleed at every pore."
        “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
        ― W.H. Auden


        "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
        -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


        "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
        --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

        Comment

        • wuapinmon
          Soul Plumber
          • Dec 2008
          • 30711

          #5
          Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
          Doesn't D&C 19:18 make it pretty clear? He says his suffering caused him to "bleed at every pore."
          You beat me to it.
          "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
          The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

          Comment

          • Moliere
            One man.....one pie
            • Oct 2009
            • 27820

            #6
            Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
            Doesn't D&C 19:18 make it pretty clear? He says his suffering caused him to "bleed at every pore."
            So D&C 19 wasn't influenced by Luke 22:44 in anyway?
            "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

            Comment

            • byu71
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2008
              • 22070

              #7
              I think Talmage said Christ sweat blood and Talmage is smarter than I am.
              Last edited by byu71; 06-30-2011, 09:30 AM.

              Comment

              • LA Ute
                Receiver of Memory
                • Nov 2008
                • 19512

                #8
                Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                So D&C 19 wasn't influenced by Luke 22:44 in anyway?
                That depends on whether the reader considers D&C 19 to be a revelation. I'm in the group that does. I'm not trying to be difficult, just pointing out that assumptions are important when doing this kind of examination of scripture.

                Edit: I'm really just using the traditional LDS approach of applying modern revelation to help understand the Bible.
                Last edited by LA Ute; 06-30-2011, 09:24 AM.
                “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                ― W.H. Auden


                "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                Comment

                • Surfah
                  Where's Wallace?
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 33726

                  #9
                  Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                  I think Talmage said Christ sweat blood and Talmage is smarter than I am.
                  Smarter than Einstein even.
                  "Nobody listens to Turtle."
                  -Turtle
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • il Padrino Ute
                    Junior Member
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 19161

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Surfah View Post
                    Smarter than Einstein even.
                    That would be tough to prove or disprove, as they never faced off in a quiz bowl.
                    "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


                    "I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader

                    Comment

                    • taekwondave
                      Junior Member
                      • Feb 2011
                      • 1160

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                      I know many Mormon and Christian apologists have gone to great lengths to physically show that when someone is so "stressed" or "afflicted" that they can actually sweat blood. Well, I say great lengths but that is just what I heard in seminary along with the whole discussion on Gethsemane and wine (or was it olive?) presses. But this thread is more on the authenticity of the statement in Luke that Christ's sweat was "as great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

                      The KJV of Luke 22 states:



                      So clearly Christ did sweat drops of blood right? According to the KJV he did, however, my NRSV has a footnote that says verses 43-44 are not found in other anciet authorities (or basically these verses aren't in the earliest reliable manuscripts).

                      I found the fact that these verses might have been added to the canon at a later date by someone other than the original author(s) interesting so I did some more research. What I found was striking, at least to me. Apparently verses 43-44 break up a chiastic structure found in verses 39-46. See below:



                      When you insert verses 43-44 back into the paragraph it not only breaks up the chiasmus, but the whole paragraph tends to flow much better without the verses. Anyway, I found this interesting and thought I'd share.

                      Thoughts?
                      That is an AWESOME find. God, I love this site. You guys are ballers.

                      Even if not though, I never read those words to mean he sweat blood, but that his SWEAT was LIKE UNTO great drops of blood, which I took to mean he was really sweating hard, but not that he was actually sweating blood. But your find is more compelling.

                      Comment

                      • taekwondave
                        Junior Member
                        • Feb 2011
                        • 1160

                        #12
                        Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                        Doesn't D&C 19:18 make it pretty clear? He says his suffering caused him to "bleed at every pore."
                        You should know your audience by now. Plenty of us on here are open to the possibility of biases being present in modern "revelation."

                        Comment

                        • LA Ute
                          Receiver of Memory
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 19512

                          #13
                          Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
                          You should know your audience by now. Plenty of us on here are open to the possibility of biases being present in modern "revelation."
                          It's a mixed audience and runs the spectrum from atheist to convinced practicing Mormon. Moliere's question was poorly crafted. It should have been, "According to the New Testament accounts, did Christ sweat blood?"
                          “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                          ― W.H. Auden


                          "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                          -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                          "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                          --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                          Comment

                          • Jacob
                            Junior Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 6801

                            #14
                            Seems like a pretty weak chiasmus to me. He kneeled down then he got up. He move away from his disciples, then he came back. Isn't that just telling the story in the order thing happened?

                            Also, does your footnote say that the section on blood sweat was not found in other sources, or not found in the earlier sources. This seems like a big distinction, and based on your post, you may have made a leap that wast there.

                            Comment

                            • taekwondave
                              Junior Member
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 1160

                              #15
                              Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                              It's a mixed audience and runs the spectrum from atheist to convinced practicing Mormon. Moliere's question was poorly crafted. It should have been, "According to the New Testament accounts, did Christ sweat blood?"
                              Touche

                              Comment

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