Where the hell are the prophets!!!???

[RobinFinderson]

LOL. That would require a wresting of epic proportions.

It isn't such a very big leap. The living Moses basically said that he personally feels that the Iraq war is an opportunity for America to take a stand on the side of liberty and that MAYBE God would "hold us responsible" (judge us) for trying to slow down president Bush's rush to war.

All of that in a speech titled "Renounce War and Proclaim Peace." What exactly are the people supposed to do when God's anointed prophet says in an official meeting that God MIGHT judge them if they hedge against war? I thought it was a pretty low moment for the church and its prophet.

But the advice about food storage? Good stuff. The Findersons are on top of that one.

[Indy Coug]

Well, I never made that "leaders were inspired" interpretation, so that's a red herring.

But don't you find it significant that the prophet clearly stated his personal position and then gave a not-so-subtle warning to dissenters? Any way you slice it, that was a pretty strong show of support to the invasion.

No, Sooner made that claim and you responded with a GBH quote, ostensibly showing the alleged instance where he said that our nation's leaders were inspired to do so.

Just because you can infer (correctly or not) that GBH personally agreed with going into Iraq, I think it's a major stretch to conclude he thought Bush was actually being inspired by God to do so.

[Indy Coug]

It isn't such a very big leap. The living Moses basically said that he personally feels that the Iraq war is an opportunity for America to take a stand on the side of liberty and that MAYBE God would "hold us responsible" (judge us) for trying to slow down president Bush's rush to war.

All of that in a speech titled "Renounce War and Proclaim Peace." What exactly are the people supposed to do when God's anointed prophet says in an official meeting that God MIGHT judge them if they hedge against war? I thought it was a pretty low moment for the church and its prophet.

But the advice about food storage? Good stuff. The Findersons are on top of that one.

In a democracy we can renounce war and proclaim peace. There is opportunity for dissent. Many have been speaking out and doing so emphatically. That is their privilege. That is their right, so long as they do so legally.

It's reasonable to conclude Pres. Hinckley was referring to those that use illegal means of dissension.

[Fiyero]

Where the hell are the prophets!!!??? At times like this any self-prolcaimed prophet who isn't out there announcing our fates and telling us what we an do about it isn't worth a tinker's damn. Is a charlatan.

They have been doing just this over the recent months and years. But only those with ears willing to hear it, heard it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No, Sooner made that claim and you responded with a GBH quote, ostensibly showing the alleged instance where he said that our nation's leaders were inspired to do so.

Just because you can infer (correctly or not) that GBH personally agreed with going into Iraq, I think it's a major stretch to conclude he thought Bush was actually being inspired by God to do so.

You continue to nitpick. I immediately clarified why I posted the link.

[TripletDaddy]

It is good to have Tex back in our midst.

And depending on how long this thread continues, it appears that Cali is in the house, too.

[All-American]

Isn't it pretty clear that he was expressing his personal feeling on the matter?

(and to address the main thrust of the thread, haven't they been warning about living within our means and avoiding unnecessary debt for some time now?)

[RobinFinderson]

Isn't it pretty clear that he was expressing his personal feeling on the matter?

(and to address the main thrust of the thread, haven't they been warning about living within our means and avoiding unnecessary debt for some time now?)

The bit about God possibly judging us for not supporting the war seemed to go a bit beyond 'personal feeling.' What is a good Mormon supposed to do when the prophet says, "This is just my personal hunch, but if we oppose the war, then maybe God is going to hold us responsible for that." Plus, I don't buy the idea that he was only talking about those people who opposed the war illegally. His legality reference is in a different part of the speech. As for the legal opposition, he says that it is their right to do that. It is also their right to drink themselves silly, but I would be willing to bet that President Hinckley would expect God to judge the unrepentant drunkard, even if living that way was a legal right.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The bit about God possibly judging us for not supporting the war seemed to go a bit beyond 'personal feeling.' What is a good Mormon supposed to do when the prophet says, "This is just my personal hunch, but if we oppose the war, then maybe God is going to hold us responsible for that." Plus, I don't buy the idea that he was only talking about those people who opposed the war illegally. His legality reference is in a different part of the speech. As for the legal opposition, he says that it is their right to do that. It is also their right to drink themselves silly, but I would be willing to bet that President Hinckley would expect God to judge the unrepentant drunkard, even if living that way was a legal right.

Yes.

Certainly what he said was true in general. I imagine God would condemn us for opposing a just war. By the same token, I imagine He would condemn us for supporting an unjust war. But I don't recall seeing that in the talk.

[UtahDan]

It is good to have Tex back in our midst.

And depending on how long this thread continues, it appears that Cali is in the house, too.

I thought I would miss Indy and Tex. I haven't even given them a thought. They are both sophists for a good cause so to speak and that doesn't interest me.

[Indy Coug]

I thought I would miss Indy and Tex. I haven't even given them a thought. They are both sophists for a good cause so to speak and that doesn't interest me.

Sophistry, huh? Too bad you couldn't just give me a fatherly pat on the head while you were at it. I guess I'll just receive your condescension in the spirit in which it was given.

[RobinFinderson]

Yes.

Certainly what he said was true in general. I imagine God would condemn us for opposing a just war. By the same token, I imagine He would condemn us for supporting an unjust war. But I don't recall seeing that in the talk.

I wonder if 'Just War' and 'Unjust War' are the kinds of labels that God would use for anything as horrible and dehumanizing as war. Personally, if I were going to divide war up into two camps, they would be 'Necessary Wars' and 'Unnecessary Wars.'

The cost of war is just too damn high to justify fighting anything other than 'necessary wars.' Too many lives get torn apart because some pencil pusher thinks that a person isn't really 'free' until some condition X is met. Of course we can't let the orphans vote until it is too late.

[SoonerCoug]

I think it's a major stretch to conclude he thought Bush was actually being inspired by God to do so.

I agree...and I didn't have the exact quote on file. At a minimum it was a strong implication in the middle of general conference that Bush was doing the right thing. You should be thanking me for bringing up an interesting piece of recent Mormon history.

The "Bush is inspired" concept is what I had been hearing from the local Mormon folks (who were using the GB Hinckley statements in defense of the war). You know darn well that plenty of Mormon folks think that politicians can be inspired by God (e.g. the founding fathers, Gayle Ruzicka, Orrin Hatch, and Bo Gritz).

[wuapinmon]

I agree...and I didn't have the exact quote on file. At a minimum it was a strong implication in the middle of general conference that Bush was doing the right thing. You should be thanking me for bringing up an interesting piece of recent Mormon history.

The "Bush is inspired" concept is what I had been hearing from the local Mormon folks (who were using the GB Hinckley statements in defense of the war). You know darn well that plenty of Mormon folks think that politicians can be inspired by God (e.g. the founding fathers, Gayle Ruzicka, Orrin Hatch, and Bo Gritz).

When I heard this talk, I came away with the impression that we shouldn't rush to war. When I read this now, it kinda chills me in an uncomfortable way. A really troubling uncomfortable way.

[SoonerCoug]

Isn't it pretty clear that he was expressing his personal feeling on the matter?

(and to address the main thrust of the thread, haven't they been warning about living within our means and avoiding unnecessary debt for some time now?)

By the "preaching avoidance of unnecessary debt" definition, Clark Howard and Ted Haggard are also prophets, which brings me to homosexuality:

We have also been warned about the danger of gay marriage. Now we have a Church full of Buttars-type freaks who use the Church's political posturing as an excuse to be bigots. I can think of at least 30,000 more productive ways the Church's efforts could have been directed.

The Church's treatment of homosexuals is akin to the Delbert Stapley attitude toward blacks: "Before you think that I'm racist, you should know that I have several negroes in my employ. And God will strike you down if you push civil rights."

"We love gays, and we even accept them if they will just reverse millions of years of evolution by not engaging in sexual behavior. And since gay marriage will destroy society, we must focus our efforts on opposing their civil rights."