Holy Ghost: What's the need?

[Portland Ute]

I am preparing my lesson for the Priest age young men tomorrow and the lesson has the following material:

President Joseph F. Smith distinguished between the person and the influence of the Holy Ghost:

“The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 61).
Point out that the person of the Holy Ghost can be in only one place at a time, but his power and influence can be omnipresent—present everywhere at the same time.

Explain that the difference between the Holy Ghost and the power and influence of the Holy Ghost can be illustrated by an analogy to the sun and the light that radiates from it. We know that the sun itself can be in only one place at a time. But the heat, light, and energy that radiate from it can enlighten and fill the entire solar system at once. Similarly, the Holy Ghost as a personage can be in only one place at one time, but his influence and power can and do fill the immensity of space.

So, after reading that, I'm a bit puzzled. Perhaps I've always been taught this. But, that's not what I have remembered, nor do I believe it is a prevalent thought amongst LDS people.

I had been taught that the Holy Ghost has no body specifically so that he/she could be omnipresent.

If the Holy Ghost can only be in one place at one time, then how is he/she any different than God the Father or Jesus Christ?

And, if as the lesson states, it is merely by his influence, power, intelligence and knowledge that he can and does fill the immensity of space....

Well, that begs the question: Why can't God the Father or Jesus Christ fill the immensity of space with his influence, power, intelligence and knowledge?

And, if he can, what is the need of the Holy Ghost?

[LA Ute]

I am preparing my lesson for the Priest age young men tomorrow and the lesson has the following material:

President Joseph F. Smith distinguished between the person and the influence of the Holy Ghost:

“The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 61).
Point out that the person of the Holy Ghost can be in only one place at a time, but his power and influence can be omnipresent—present everywhere at the same time.

Explain that the difference between the Holy Ghost and the power and influence of the Holy Ghost can be illustrated by an analogy to the sun and the light that radiates from it. We know that the sun itself can be in only one place at a time. But the heat, light, and energy that radiate from it can enlighten and fill the entire solar system at once. Similarly, the Holy Ghost as a personage can be in only one place at one time, but his influence and power can and do fill the immensity of space.

So, after reading that, I'm a bit puzzled. Perhaps I've always been taught this. But, that's not what I have remembered, nor do I believe it is a prevalent thought amongst LDS people.

I had been taught that the Holy Ghost has no body specifically so that he/she could be omnipresent.

If the Holy Ghost can only be in one place at one time, then how is he/she any different than God the Father or Jesus Christ?

And, if as the lesson states, it is merely by his influence, power, intelligence and knowledge that he can and does fill the immensity of space....

Well, that begs the question: Why can't God the Father or Jesus Christ fill the immensity of space with his influence, power, intelligence and knowledge?

And, if he can, what is the need of the Holy Ghost?

Maybe I have been living in a cave but I have never seen it taught the way that manual bit does.

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. But I am ready to learn.

[Portland Ute]

Maybe I have been living in a cave but I have never seen it taught the way that manual bit does.

So, I'm not alone in seeing the disconnect here?

I am truly puzzled...

[Moliere]

I was always taught that the holy ghost didn't have a body so he could dwell within us. I've also heard the sun/Sunray analogy many times. I think he has the same purpose as the Son. Remember that the ancient apostles didn't have need for the holy ghost while Christ was with them.

[TripletDaddy]

I was always taught that the holy ghost didn't have a body so he could dwell within us. I've also heard the sun/Sunray analogy many times. I think he has the same purpose as the Son. Remember that the ancient apostles didn't have need for the holy ghost while Christ was with them.

[pellegrino]

is this news to you?

[LA Ute]

So, I'm not alone in seeing the disconnect here?

I am truly puzzled...

I've just always interpreted D&C 130:22 according to its plain meaning. I've never seen it taught any other way. Maybe I haven't been paying attention.

EDIT: It seems that JFS is teaching that the HG, as an identifiable personage of spirit, is in one place and doesn't spread himself around like some kind of intangible ectoplasm. That view I can buy pretty easily, and I think the D&C language can be reconciled with it, even verse 22 does say the HG "dwells in us."

[TripletDaddy]

is this news to you?

I've never heard that one. As it relates to this thread, I have hears the radiant sunlight example a bunch both in the states and on my mission.

Why would there be no need for the holy ghost because you are in the same room as Jesus Christ?

[SportUTE]

1 Nephi 11:11 spells it out quite clearly:

And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

[Portland Ute]

1 Nephi 11:11 spells it out quite clearly:

And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

Help me. How does this resolve my question?

[pelagius]

I can't tell from the post. Is this post expressing dissatistifcation with the school of thought in Mormonism that distinguishes between an omnipresent indwelling via the power or influence of the Holy and a more literal non-omnipresent special occassion dwelling by the personage of the Holy Ghost? (Something like I wish this notion would fade away)?

Or is it more that you have never encountered this notion before in Mormonism (I suppose all the JFS and McConkie Mormons are old enough to be consider unreliable cranks confined to goofy High Priest quorum discussions so maybe it is a minority view these days)?

[LA Ute]

Help me. How does this resolve my question?

I think Sportute's addressing the point that the HG is not an ethereal influence, but is a being with a spirit body. Having thought about it some more (and thank you for bringing the subject up and making me think it over) I think it makes sense that the Holy Ghost "dwells" in us through his influence but is not literally "in" us. It seems that the HG has a special mission or role in that regard:

Joseph Smith also stated that an "everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages…are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator" (TPJS, p. 190).

So although Christ, as you note, could "fill the immensity of space with his influence, power, intelligence and knowledge," it seems to be the Spirit's role to do that.

[Moliere]

I've never heard that one. As it relates to this thread, I have hears the radiant sunlight example a bunch both in the states and on my mission.

Why would there be no need for the holy ghost because you are in the same room as Jesus Christ?

Why does it have to make sense? Jesus said:

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is aexpedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the bComforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

See also John chapter 14.

I have no idea why the Holy Ghost wasn't there when Christ was. I have no idea how he functions, but he does.

[LA Ute]

Why does it have to make sense? Jesus said:



See also John chapter 14.

I have no idea why the Holy Ghost wasn't there when Christ was. I have no idea how he functions, but he does.

It appears that the gift of the Holy Ghost wasn't present during Christ's earthly ministry, but the HG's influence was certainly present (as when the HG testified to Peter of Christ's divinity).

For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7:39; 16:7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (cf. Matt. 16:16–17; 1 Cor. 12:3).

[TripletDaddy]

Why does it have to make sense? Jesus said:



See also John chapter 14.

I have no idea why the Holy Ghost wasn't there when Christ was. I have no idea how he functions, but he does.

Ok, now I see what you were getting at.

You said that they did not need the holy ghost in Christs presense. Those verses don't support that empirical statement, really even in the slightest. Those verses dont address need at all.

LA Ute posted truth. In fact, did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the message board?

See you on the road to Emmaus....