Taekwondave (The Biathanatos Question)

[taekwondave]

Maybe I'm a bit simple minded, but this question isn't really that difficult to me.

My ideas come from the BOM when Jacob is preaching at the temple about polygamy. Basically he says that there are times when God orders it, and it's OK. And there are times when he doesn't, and it is an abomination.

So - in my simple mind the definition of sin is not necessarily related to a specific act. Sin is simply doing something contrary to God's will or command.

Generally speaking, murder is sin. Except when God tells you to do it - like the case of Nephi and Laban. Or during time of war - which God has also said it is OK to defend yourself, your family, your freedoms.

If you believe that killing yourself, suicide, is sin like unto murder - then you also have to believe that it is OK if it is God's will. And I seem to recall Christ making a comment along the lines of "Thy will be done."

This is a common perspective in the church. I don't agree with it. I don't believe that God has a will that sways and shifts with the circumstance, making principles null and void. I think you obey principles or you don't.

Now, that being said, I don't think disobeying one principle makes you good or bad, because, in the disobedience of a principle, you are actually obeying ANOTHER principle. And at some times in our lives OTHER principles seem to be what are called for and so we obey them.

I don't think there is any need to condemn or excuse Nephi for what he did. But I do think that Nephi made up the story about God telling him to kill Laban just so people wouldn't question his worthiness or his authority.

Nephi WAS a dictator, mind you. Despite how the writers of the BOM try to spin it. There's no denying that. I think he had some problems, one of which was an inability to ever admit he was wrong. Per the mentality of the divine right of kings "inasmuch as your brethren rebel against you, you will be made a ruler and a teacher over them" everything you do is justified by God. I don't buy that. I don't think Nephi was half as awesome as he gave himself credit for.

[taekwondave]

It was a sin when David sent Bathsheba's husband to the front lines so I am unsure why that wouldn't be a sin in modern days, unless the latter event was based more on one man's personal desires than God's will.

How can we know the difference between revelation inspired of God and a "revelation" inspired by lust?

You can't.

[Flystripper]

Sacrifice isn't suicide.

[Eddie]

Oh, that's an easy one. Nephi made it up. Ding, ding!

That's a cop out. I could use that to justify ANYTHING!

For instance - Moses made up the 10 commandments. It really isn't a sin to kill. Why are we even having this debate?

This is a common perspective in the church. I don't agree with it. I don't believe that God has a will that sways and shifts with the circumstance, making principles null and void. I think you obey principles or you don't.

Now, that being said, I don't think disobeying one principle makes you good or bad, because, in the disobedience of a principle, you are actually obeying ANOTHER principle. And at some times in our lives OTHER principles seem to be what are called for and so we obey them.

I don't think there is any need to condemn or excuse Nephi for what he did. But I do think that Nephi made up the story about God telling him to kill Laban just so people wouldn't question his worthiness or his authority.

Nephi WAS a dictator, mind you. Despite how the writers of the BOM try to spin it. There's no denying that. I think he had some problems, one of which was an inability to ever admit he was wrong. Per the mentality of the divine right of kings "inasmuch as your brethren rebel against you, you will be made a ruler and a teacher over them" everything you do is justified by God. I don't buy that. I don't think Nephi was half as awesome as he gave himself credit for.

While I don't completely buy the "God knows all, and we'll never understand" arguments or as an explanation for everything, I do think there is something to them.

I think God has a general plan. I think that the general plan has some typical guidelines or "rules" if you will. But I also think that there are instances in which there are exceptions to the rules.

If you believe that God's overall plan is to have His children return to him, and that this drives His will - then (for me, at least) it isn't too hard to believe that in order to achieve this he will tell us what to do, and sometimes that will mean changing from "do" this to "don't do" this.

Perhaps this is a weak/overly simple analogy - but I watched part of the BYU/U of U baseball game last night. I watched the managers/coaches send in signals to the base runners - telling them what to do. I have to imagine that there are general rules that the players are told to follow in order to win the game and reach their objectives. Such as "never swing when you have a 3-0 count!" Or "with 2 outs and a full count, run at the pitch".

But as circumstances change, such as the game going into extra innings and one batter potentially deciding the thing, I could see the instructions from the manager changing. "I know I said ____, but now I want you to ____"

I don't think the commandments are Gods plan. I think He gives them to us to help bring about His plan. I think he can use the circumstances to determine what we are to do now.

[Sullyute]

That's a great question.

I guess the answer (from my perspective) is that there are very few laws which don't have an exception depending on the circumstances.

The challenge is determining what is God's will for you. And that takes some effort.I like to think that God has fewer exceptions than those of Roman and Greek mythology, which makes Him somewhat less fickle. But fickle at times none the less.

And, or course, there is always the "He is God and sees/knows infinately more than your or I. We have to trust Him. It won't always make sense to us." I get the impression you wouldn't be a fan of that position...

I actually am a fan of that position and that is the problem. That position is causing me to doubt organized religion at all or that organized religion is just a stepping stone in one's spiritual growth. If prophets only teach "general principals" as Elder Oaks said, and "sin" seems to be a moving target (or avoidance) then it all comes down to understanding God's will for myself (like you said above). So I guess I am having some cognitive dissidence with the lists of do's and don'ts I learn in church each week verses the will of God which could be to disregard everything I was told. So I guess I need to extend a little more effort into soul searching...

[BlueHair]

I actually am a fan of that position and that is the problem. That position is causing me to doubt organized religion at all or that organized religion is just a stepping stone in one's spiritual growth. If prophets only teach "general principals" as Elder Oaks said, and "sin" seems to be a moving target (or avoidance) then it all comes down to understanding God's will for myself (like you said above). So I guess I am having some cognitive dissidence with the lists of do's and don'ts I learn in church each week verses the will of God which could be to disregard everything I was told. So I guess I need to extend a little more effort into soul searching...

A good place to start would be to become a BYU fan. It's hard to get clear messages from God when you insist on cheering against His team.

[wuapinmon]

Okay, I followed the link and read. Good stuff. But he seemed to say that Christ DIDN'T let men kill him. I recall the quote, "I lay down my own life. No man taketh it from me..." which suggests that Christ "gave up the ghost" voluntarily. Is that what you're getting at? That Christ DID commit suicide because nobody could be said to have killed him?

You ARE mind f***ing me, aren't you.

John 10:18

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

I'm not getting at anything, per se. I just asked you to opine on a very heated and controversial question. I'm actually impressed that you read and then remembered the scripture. I thought you were merely a troll; now I see there's hope for you on CUF.

[LA Ute]

John 10:18

I'm not getting at anything, per se. I just asked you to opine on a very heated and controversial question. I'm actually impressed that you read and then remembered the scripture. I thought you were merely a troll; now I see there's hope for you on CUF.

I'm short on time but will offer a quick and perhaps simplistic thought: Arguably, the Savior is not culpable for suicide any more than a soldier is who throws himself on a hand grenade to save his comrades.

[Sullyute]

A good place to start would be to become a BYU fan. It's hard to get clear messages from God when you insist on cheering against His team.

I got a good chuckle from that one. I might need a visit from a angel with a drawn sword if that type of sacrifice is required.

[wuapinmon]

I'm short on time but will offer a quick and perhaps simplistic thought: Arguably, the Savior is not culpable for suicide any more than a soldier is who throws himself on a hand grenade to save his comrades.

A keen observation.

[Flystripper]

A keen observation.

and a hack

[Eddie]

I actually am a fan of that position and that is the problem. That position is causing me to doubt organized religion at all or that organized religion is just a stepping stone in one's spiritual growth. If prophets only teach "general principals" as Elder Oaks said, and "sin" seems to be a moving target (or avoidance) then it all comes down to understanding God's will for myself (like you said above). So I guess I am having some cognitive dissidence with the lists of do's and don'ts I learn in church each week verses the will of God which could be to disregard everything I was told. So I guess I need to extend a little more effort into soul searching...

Kind of brings a different prespective to the concept of "teach correct principles and let them govern themselves".

I agree with the concept that with organized religion you have to be careful to not load up your leadership with pharisees, saducees, and lawyers. Unfortunately with any organization that has rules, you run into these types of folks who want to quantify and have something black and white rather than interpret for themselves.

Perhaps it is one of those things in which the choice is either having an organized religion administered by imperfect beings that results in misconceptions and less than perfect execution of the plan, or having so little structure that folks find a way to justify and excuse themselves from following the plan. So God decided of the two he would go with the first.

A good place to start would be to become a BYU fan. It's hard to get clear messages from God when you insist on cheering against His team.

I got a good chuckle from that one. I might need a visit from a angel with a drawn sword if that type of sacrifice is required.

I have to admit - this got me to laugh out loud as well.

[taekwondave]

That's a cop out. I could use that to justify ANYTHING!

For instance - Moses made up the 10 commandments. It really isn't a sin to kill. Why are we even having this debate?



While I don't completely buy the "God knows all, and we'll never understand" arguments or as an explanation for everything, I do think there is something to them.

I think God has a general plan. I think that the general plan has some typical guidelines or "rules" if you will. But I also think that there are instances in which there are exceptions to the rules.

If you believe that God's overall plan is to have His children return to him, and that this drives His will - then (for me, at least) it isn't too hard to believe that in order to achieve this he will tell us what to do, and sometimes that will mean changing from "do" this to "don't do" this.

Perhaps this is a weak/overly simple analogy - but I watched part of the BYU/U of U baseball game last night. I watched the managers/coaches send in signals to the base runners - telling them what to do. I have to imagine that there are general rules that the players are told to follow in order to win the game and reach their objectives. Such as "never swing when you have a 3-0 count!" Or "with 2 outs and a full count, run at the pitch".

But as circumstances change, such as the game going into extra innings and one batter potentially deciding the thing, I could see the instructions from the manager changing. "I know I said ____, but now I want you to ____"

I don't think the commandments are Gods plan. I think He gives them to us to help bring about His plan. I think he can use the circumstances to determine what we are to do now.

This was an excellent thought. Fantastic parallel. I guess what it comes down to on this point is if you believe God is TRYING to get us BACK at all. I don't. I don't think we ever left God's presence or God's kingdom, we only think we did, and "according to your faith be it done unto you." The beauty to me about wise principles is that they imply the reality of the kingdom of God right here, right now, and show you how a member of such a kingdom thinks and acts. It isn't forward thinking, it's NOW thinking. I don't think God is trying to get us to GO anywhere, because we're NOT going anywhere. The point is to learn to LOVE being here. Those who do are already in heaven and don't need to wait for the better world so many prophets speak of.

[taekwondave]

[QUOTE=Eddie;577856]That's a cop out. I could use that to justify ANYTHING![QUOTE]

Well then you and Nephi would be in friendly company

That's just it. I really think Nephi was copping out of taking responsibility for his actions with his story. It's the simplest explanation and it seems the most probable to me.

[taekwondave]

That's a cop out. I could use that to justify ANYTHING!

For instance - Moses made up the 10 commandments. It really isn't a sin to kill. .

I don't know those two go together. Whether or not Moses made up the ten commandments, deep reflection on them will manifest their wisdom. Nephi appears to have simply done what felt necessary at the time. I don't blame him for that, but HE obviously blamed himself for it in some way, otherwise he wouldn't have needed so much coaxing from "the spirit" to do so, nor would he have felt the need to recount such an excuse to his posterity. I think that Nephi really thought he needed to get those plates at any cost because of his fear, his fear led him to betray a principle he believed in, and so he felt the need to explain himself. And just like an RM who doesn't know how to justify breaking up with a perfectly good girlfriend, he claimed that God told him to and he was just being obedient. THAT'S a cop out.