The foundation of the typical Mormon testimony

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  • taekwondave
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2011
    • 1160

    #1

    The foundation of the typical Mormon testimony

    The foundation of testimony for the typical Mormon seems to rest on this statement:

    "Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the lord will bless you for it but you don't need to worry. The lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." Marion G. Romney (of the first presidency), quoting LDS President Heber J. Grant, Conference Report Oct. 1960 p. 78

    Unfortunately, Joseph Smith already warned against this type of doctrine many years previously.

    “We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme excercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their Presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Isreal will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.”

    - Joseph Smith, Millinnial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 596-595

    I've brought this quote up to many of my fellow members but to no avail. I've thought about why that is such a hard idea for them to accept. I think it is answered by the words in the Book of Nephi.

    "And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations. And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles. And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord? And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us."
    (1 Ne 15:6-9)

    I think it has to do with the ease of the former premise. How much easier is it to just take orders from your leaders? How much easier is it to accept another in a position of authority as capable of receiving revelation, when by and large you know of no significant revelation the Lord has ever given you yourself?

    When I talk to fellow members about their communications with God, I usually hear something like this, "I get on my knees and I pray with all my heart. And then I'll listen. And if I don't hear anything, I'll crawl into bed. He'll usually answer somehow in the next few days through something or someone else."

    When I ask, "What do you mean, you listen?" They say, "I don't know. Like for a voice or a feeling or something."

    If that is how the majority of church members communicate with God then I really can't blame them for resisting a paradigm wherein they are personally responsible to sift through truth and error themselves and can't just place that squarely on the shoulders of the old, official-looking guys that talk to us in Conference.
  • wuapinmon
    Soul Plumber
    • Dec 2008
    • 30711

    #2
    Originally posted by taekwondave View Post

    If that is how the majority of church members communicate with God then I really can't blame them for resisting a paradigm wherein they are personally responsible to sift through truth and error themselves and can't just place that squarely on the shoulders of the old, official-looking guys that talk to us in Conference.
    How does God communicate with you?
    "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
    The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

    Comment

    • falafel
      loves to talk on things
      • Mar 2009
      • 37973

      #3
      What state is your foundation head quartered in, and how can I make a donation?
      Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

      Dig your own grave, and save!

      "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

      "I know that you are one of the cool and 'edgy' BYU fans" -- Wally

      GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

      Comment

      • SportUTE
        Newb
        • Apr 2011
        • 157

        #4
        I think both points of view are correct:

        Condition #1: The Lord would never let his mouthpiece lead the Saints astray. i.e.: general guidelines and counsel for "The Church"

        Condition #2: The Lord requires everyone to work out their own salvation and be tested even as Abraham. i.e.: the most appropriate course of action appears to be in contrast to what you "should" do: Abraham sacrificing Isaac in the same manner that he was rescued from an Angel.

        If you haven't had an "Abrahamic Dilemma" yet you're in for some fun. It is really hard to assess your situation, seek guidance from the Lord, make an appropriate choice within the gray area and then have faith in the decision even if there is a ton of ambiguity and NO empathy from a casual observer. A lot easier to chicken out and just blindly follow the general or even explicit rule.
        Last edited by SportUTE; 04-19-2011, 12:43 AM.

        Comment

        • San Juan Sun
          Kicked to the curb
          • Dec 2009
          • 9214

          #5
          I don't accept the premise of the first post of this thread (i.e. most members are simply following the orders of the leadership).

          I think that painting any members basis for testimony, be they stalwart, lukewarm, apostate, or otherwise is fraught with danger. It's far too easy to simplify and generalize something so nebulous and fluid as someone's deep religious beliefs.
          "Sure, I fought. I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."

          - Ty Cobb

          Comment

          • Jeff Lebowski
            Corporate lackey for Jesus
            • Nov 2008
            • 69676

            #6
            "There are two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking."

            --Theodore Rubin
            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

            Comment

            • Uncle Ted
              The Big 12 money shot.
              • Apr 2010
              • 28853

              #7
              Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
              "There are two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking."

              --Theodore Rubin
              Great quote.
              "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
              "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
              "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
              GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

              Comment

              • taekwondave
                Junior Member
                • Feb 2011
                • 1160

                #8
                Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                How does God communicate with you?
                I have this crystal clear rock I found in my backyard when I was seven. I found that if I stare at it for a really long time I get so bored that even praying sounds like more fun and then I do that.

                Comment

                • taekwondave
                  Junior Member
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 1160

                  #9
                  No actually,

                  I use the Neale Donald Walsch method. I grab a piece of paper and a pencil, I ask "God" a question, and then I pretend to be God and write me something back. That one's actually not a joke so don't laugh. It works for me

                  Comment

                  • Viking
                    Banned
                    • Jun 2009
                    • 6470

                    #10
                    Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
                    I use the Neale Donald Walsch method. I grab a piece of paper and a pencil, I ask "God" a question, and then I pretend to be God and write me something back. That one's actually not a joke so don't laugh. It works for me
                    You wouldn't happen to be related to someone named "Moose" or his legion?

                    Comment

                    • wuapinmon
                      Soul Plumber
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 30711

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Viking View Post
                      You wouldn't happen to be related to someone named "Moose" or his legion?
                      No way, taekwondave can be funny and charming on occasion. Moose is just a dullard who thinks he's funny.
                      "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
                      The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

                      Comment

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