Late night thought on LDS dogma

[TexTechCoug]

It seems like the doctrine and practices of the Church were much more plastic during the first 50 or so years. Joseph pretty much just threw new stuff out there all the time, and because of the whole prophet stuff, it flew. Same for Brigham, he could pretty much say or do anything and it was accepted.

What I find both funny and really disappointing is that a lot of the off the cuff stuff that was done by early prophets somehow became immutable truth and granite doctrine, even though it was never meant to be.

Blacks and the priesthood is the most glaring example. Joseph didn't teach or believe that black men weren't entitled to the priesthood, and Brigham didn't immediately enforce his opinion. There is no grounding in real doctrine, but somehow Brigham's personal opinion became doctrine that stuck with the Church for over a hundred years.

I think it is sad that the Church has become less flexible and more dogmatic with each and every year. Not only is their a paucity of interesting new revelation, but somehow we've become saddled with a bunch of practices that aren't grounded in anything more than some dead prophet's personal preferences.

On that same note I think the Church in general is becoming less and less charismatic. People used to share visions and powerful personal spiritual experiences, but after several Gen Conf. talks that say that these are too personal you rarely hear from the GA's something like, "I had a vision where I talked to JS or the other day Moses showed up." It seems like if that stuff happened to JS or BY it should still happen, and I don't know why suddenly no one wants to talk about, except that they are afraid it isn't PC.

I think what I am saying is that the Church is becoming increasingly vanilla in order to be more palatable to the World at large, when the real roots of the LDS Church is a guy who saw God and Jesus and a whole multitude of dead prophets, while marrying lots of women and who liked a good wrestling match and now we have a bunch a repetitive messages, no visions, boring music, and if you don't buy the company line you are a heretic.

I will say, that I honestly believe that this is the Lord's Church, I just think there is a serious lack of dynamic leadership and an ever growing burden of dogma created by old grouchy men.

[SportUTE]

Good post

Yeah, I think you make some good points. There are people in my ward that are absolutely terrified of doing anything other than what is explicitly drawn out within the General Handbook of Instruction.

I think it's a lot easier to fall back into routine and tradition instead of actively seeking out the best alternative. People are terrified of being wrong in this Church. Especially if it's in a new direction by themselves.

Look at Deseret Industries. Srsly? There are sooooo many areas that could be explored for better training for the lower skilled. Sorting used clothes made sense during the Depression. In our day and age that is obsolete. Yet we keep trudging along...

[Devildog]

I have a guy in my ward that must be one of the nicest humans on the damn planet.

An honest, good, genuine, nice guy. A friend to everyone.

He got up in testimony meeting and explained why he had shaved off the beard he had worn for years.

I had never thought about his beard at all. Not one moment's thought. He has had it since the day I first met him.

Made me wonder if anyone else there had ever thought about his beard at all.

[Uncle Ted]

BY suffered from diarrhea of the month, IMHO, and everything that came out of his month shouldn't be considered gospel. If everything that BY said was gospel then there must be men living on the moon and adam/eve were created on another planet and brought here to earth in an UFO (that might make for a good addition to the movie in the temple, however). BY was also of the opinion that blacks (and, in a lot of cases, indians) were second class citizens. He let his opinion become church policy and even allowed slavery in the Utah territory for a time. The leadership that followed BY assumed that this issue was gospel and no one bothered to question it, even though there was obviously no question in JS's mind given he ordained Elijah Abel and make him a seventy. BY was wrong and it took a long time for the church to question it, IMO. When they did finally take the question to the Lord He confirmed to them that the priesthood should be extended to all worthy males.

[Sleeping in EQ]

The contemporary Church feels like a corporate exercise in psychological behaviorism.

[NorthwestUteFan]

You just can't trust those Vermonters. Joseph Smith Senior was a fourth generation Bostonian, just outside Boston actually. The area was a hotbed of anti-slavery rhetoric and activities, and of course was less rural than Vermont. I am certain this historical background strongly influenced young Joseph.

Joseph, I recall, made statements in essence declaring all people of all races should be equal, although their communities may be be better off living separately. At least it was a bit more tolerant than later questionable statements from later leaders.

As I understand, there are over a half million black church members in Brazil. I don't know what could be done to bring similar success with black members in the USA. According to Darron Smith there are only a few thousand black members here in the USA.


We are unfortunately reaping the consequences of karma running over our former dogma.

[Donuthole]

BY suffered from diarrhea of the month, IMHO, and everything that came out of his month shouldn't be considered gospel. If everything that BY said was gospel then there must be men living on the moon and adam/eve were created on another planet and brought here to earth in an UFO (that might make for a good addition to the movie in the temple, however).

I'd be lying if I said that I've never watched the temple movie and, when the planets orbit past in the opening scene, imagined (wished?) that it was going to turn into a Star Tours type ride. In fact, I'd be lying if I said I hadn't imagined that on multiple occasions.

[Joe Public]

On that same note I think the Church in general is becoming less and less charismatic. People used to share visions and powerful personal spiritual experiences, but after several Gen Conf. talks that say that these are too personal you rarely hear from the GA's something like, "I had a vision where I talked to JS or the other day Moses showed up." It seems like if that stuff happened to JS or BY it should still happen, and I don't know why suddenly no one wants to talk about, except that they are afraid it isn't PC.

It seems that way to me, too.

[RobinFinderson]

It is good to see a bunch of new/relatively new CUFers posting in this thread. Nice thoughts, TTCoug, and welcome to all of the rest of you newbs.

[Jeff Lebowski]

There's the old saying:

"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket."

I wouldn't go so far as to call the church a racket, but the trajectory you describe is fairly typical of any large movement, religious or otherwise. Charismatic visionaries and iconoclasts are great for starting a revolution, but that environment is not conducive to long-term growth and stability.

[scottie]

There's the old saying:

"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket."

I wouldn't go so far as to call the church a racket, but the trajectory you describe is fairly typical of any large movement, religious or otherwise. Charismatic visionaries and iconoclasts are great for starting a revolution, but that environment is not conducive to long-term growth and stability.

I agree. Do you think the reins should be pulled in a bit on "continuing revelation"?

[TexTechCoug]

There's the old saying:

"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket."

I wouldn't go so far as to call the church a racket, but the trajectory you describe is fairly typical of any large movement, religious or otherwise. Charismatic visionaries and iconoclasts are great for starting a revolution, but that environment is not conducive to long-term growth and stability.

So you are saying we are headed the way of the the former USSR. Maybe Elder Bednar can be our Putin.

It would be nice to have a little more life in the Church. I am not talking a Pentecostal movement, but the fact that the pace off General Conference is set by the guy running the TelePrompTer is a little disappointing. I believe the leaders are inspired, but maybe a little to comfortable doing business as usual, and a certain number of them are BRM hardliners that really believe the dogma.

The HC became a lot worse under the leadership of Bateman precisely because he believed his personal opinions to be enforceable as doctrine. He encouraged people to snitch and held that if you didn't you were complicity. He also killed fun at sporting events by declaring what was appropriate way to be a fan. The guy was unapproachable because he seemed to believe he was in a separate sphere from the masses.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I fear the church is following the Jeff Lebowski trajectory. It started out as a brash young radical, a founding member of the Seattle Seven (plus six other guys). Nowadays, however, it is more worried about finding the rug that tied the whole room together and just takin' it easy for the rest of us out here. Speaking in terms of revelation, anyway.

Our entire church is fundamentally based upon modern-day revelation, yet there is a relative paucity of said revelation of late. The most groundshaking revelation in my recent memory was Pres. Hinckley's decision to build smaller temples.

I don't know how much longer we can be satisfied by the Jr High Seminary admonition that "WE COULD get more revelation, but we are nnot yet ready for it... "

[TexTechCoug]

I agree. Do you think the reins should be pulled in a bit on "continuing revelation"?

Seriously, it seems like this has been curtailed too much. The World has changed a lot and it seems like there are myriad important questions that could be addresses. That being said I think we are supposed to explore answers to many of these issues on a personal level.

In my last stake the new SP was a visionary, literally. He got up at the pulpit and said he had literally had a vision of what was going to happen and how to do it. Not a businessman's vision, but a dream/spiritual vision including very specific details. He said it right from the pulpit, and I have to admit it was a little surprising. I understand that the small temple there has had to add more sessions to accommodate the increased attendance. It isn't business as usual and it is inspiring.

[TexTechCoug]

Our entire church is fundamentally based upon modern-day revelation, yet there is a relative paucity of said revelation of late. The most groundshaking revelation in my recent memory was Pres. Hinckley's decision to build smaller temples

I think you are forgetting the revelation that women can only wear one pair of earrings, that was really ground breaking.