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A Sabbath invitation to Islamo-apologists in BYU's religion department

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  • A Sabbath invitation to Islamo-apologists in BYU's religion department

    Suck it.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-affair.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/as...ex.html?hpt=C2

    I had numerous convs w/ the moon-eyed Mormons of this stripe while I was at the Y and since - the basic case I heard was that Islam is Mormonism's misunderstood cousin (we're both, after all, in favor of modesty and, errr, fidelity). So I'm just pausing from my day of half-assed Sabbath observance to flip you all a giant bird from the shadow of St Paul's.

    Islam - properly practiced - is a pathology. Mohammed was an illiterate epileptic warlord who ruthlessly slaughtered his opponents and the Koran is a MAD magazine of mostly incoherent violent demagoguery. To the extent that it preaches charity it is charity for the Ummah - the unbelievers, even the allegedly protected "People of the Book" are only protected in submission.

    I have many Muslim friends who are the salt of the earth. I've spent time in Jordan with the family of close friend, I've had two devout, practicing Persian housemates. They bought me a copy of the Koran (my second) and read it with me (my second reading). But all of them have one thing in common - they have found universal principles that transcend Islam's deeply embedded localisms.

    And please - spare me the bullshit kneejerk comparisons to biblical violence or silly equivalence plays on the Crusades. The Bible is composed of a thousand voices - not one incorruptible fusion of God and a prophet - and it offers no blanket justification for violence against the generic "unbeliever" which the Koran repeatedly does. The founders of the two biblical religions never lined up hundreds of vanquished opponents and beheaded them into a trench, never plotted the assassination of political opponents, never "married" (a neat euphemism for sanctioned rape) 9 year old girls, never organized looting raids on caravans when they needed money. And the Bible's worst episode of violence/conquest against unbelievers (Joshua) was flat-out wrong - and most of us can just say that.

    OK, I'm running on - but to recap: Radical Islam is FUBAR. Non-radical Islam is only non-radical because it manages to ignore the batshit crazy ravings that make up much of its foundational text, and to bracket the horrible, murdering, paranoid, subjugating, child-marrying life of its primary exemplar.

    Have fun with this kiddies, I'm out.
    Last edited by oxcoug; 04-10-2011, 07:06 AM.
    Ute-ī sunt fīmī differtī

    It can't all be wedding cake.

  • #2
    Sharia law scares the crap out of me. I have a tough time reconciling the good Muslim people I work with to it's practice.
    "Sure, I fought. I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."

    - Ty Cobb

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    • #3
      Radical Mormonism is FUBAR. Non-radical Mormonism is only non-radical because it manages to ignore the batshit crazy ravings that make up much of its foundation, and to bracket the horrible, murdering (Mountain Meadows), paranoid, polygamous lives of its founders.

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      • #4
        Good for them for sticking to their beliefs. Too many religions these days don't enforce their rules equally. I imagine the rest of the world will laud them for enforcing their rules.
        "Don't expect I'll see you 'till after the race"

        "So where does the power come from to see the race to its end...from within"

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        • #5
          WHere in the Koran does it talk about the practices you linked to? It seems like they are the twisted interpretations of men in power rather than what muhammad taught.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
            Radical Mormonism is FUBAR. Non-radical Mormonism is only non-radical because it manages to ignore the batshit crazy ravings that make up much of its foundation, and to bracket the horrible, murdering (Mountain Meadows), paranoid, polygamous lives of its founders.
            But there are enough non-radical Mormons who will refute and condemn what the radical Mormons say. Why are the non-radical Muslims silent?
            "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


            "I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Maximus View Post
              WHere in the Koran does it talk about the practices you linked to? It seems like they are the twisted interpretations of men in power rather than what muhammad taught.
              I can't cite chapter and verse for you, but as despicable as the Bible is, the Koran really is worse. The Bible is only evil if you "liken the scriptures unto yourself" or make assumptions about god's evil acts being acceptable for people too. The Koran requires no such assumptions.

              While I basically agree with what oxcoug posted, very similar arguments could nevertheless be made against most any religion. Radical Islam is a huge problem right now, but the difference between it and other religions is one of degree. Most Muslims simply ignore the more evil or loony aspects of their religion, just as most Christians do.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
                But there are enough non-radical Mormons who will refute and condemn what the radical Mormons say. Why are the non-radical Muslims silent?
                Yeah, I think that's a good point.

                It just seems like Mormons should understand more than members of any other religion that a religion isn't necessarily defined by everything its founder did.

                And yes, Muhammad was a terrible person: I think most historians consider him a liar and a mass murderer. And centuries of much of the Islamic world living in illiteracy, ignorance and abject poverty haven't helped bring Islam far enough away from its roots.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by woot View Post
                  I can't cite chapter and verse for you, but as despicable as the Bible is, the Koran really is worse. The Bible is only evil if you "liken the scriptures unto yourself" or make assumptions about god's evil acts being acceptable for people too. The Koran requires no such assumptions.

                  While I basically agree with what oxcoug posted, very similar arguments could nevertheless be made against most any religion. Radical Islam is a huge problem right now, but the difference between it and other religions is one of degree. Most Muslims simply ignore the more evil or loony aspects of their religion, just as most Christians do.
                  Certainly the OT is full of examples, but Christians have the fact that the NT is absent of any of it and the entire law of the OT has been done away with. Big difference

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Maximus View Post
                    Certainly the OT is full of examples, but Christians have the fact that the NT is absent of any of it and the entire law of the OT has been done away with. Big difference
                    Maybe. Christ came to "fulfill" the law, which is extremely ambiguous as it is, and apparently means something like "uphold" in the original (help me out if you know). That and Jesus is the one who preached hell. Not to mention that regardless of whether the "law" was done away with, God still did all sorts of evil stuff. What happened to him not changing?
                    Last edited by woot; 04-10-2011, 05:42 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by woot View Post
                      Maybe. Christ came to "fulfill" the law, which is extremely ambiguous as it is, and apparently means something like "uphold" in the original (help me out if you know). That and Jesus is the one who preached hell. Not to mention that regardless of whether the "law" was done away with, God still did all sorts of evil stuff. What happened to him not changing?
                      Still have that orthodox Mormon thinking cap on huh?

                      I'll stay out of this as I really don't know the Koran or Muslim teachings. I do, however, have one really good Pakistani friend that is Muslim but not very devout. I sometimes wonder if he left Pakistan so he could be less devout. He observes Ramadan for about 5 days before giving up. He doesn't say his daily prayers (at least not that I know of and there are plenty I work with that do) and he drinks. He's also one of the coolest people I know and has really given me a good perception of western Muslims.

                      On a side note, I used to travel with him a bit and he'd always, and I mean always as in every time, get pulled out of the security line for additional screening.
                      "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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                      • #12
                        Islam is awash in contradictions, however, I don't mind it unless one of three things happen:

                        1. Someone tries to proselyte me
                        2. Someone tries to misrepresent its checkered history
                        3. Someone uses it as a reason behind terrorism

                        Otherwise, I'm rocking the 11th Article of Faith

                        Muhammad was not a nice person. Judah was not a nice person. Christ, now he was a cool dude.
                        "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
                        The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

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                        • #13
                          There are many good reasons why people stay in religions that they do not entirely believe. oxy is just trolling... a hit and run nonetheless.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
                            There are many good reasons why people stay in religions that they do not entirely believe. oxy is just trolling... a hit and run no nethe less.
                            FIFY
                            Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

                            There's three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who's got the same first name as a city; and never go near a lady's got a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Donuthole View Post
                              FIFY
                              <sigh> The check is in the mail.

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