Cen you be pro-choice and a good Mormon?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • ERCougar
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2008
    • 10978

    #1

    Cen you be pro-choice and a good Mormon?

    I got into an argument with a friend of mine about this and then subsequently about Prop 8 last night. He sent me this talk by Elder Oaks to prove his point. Here's the relevant excerpt:

    Some Latter-day Saints say they deplore abortion, but they give these exceptional circumstances as a basis for their pro-choice position that the law should allow abortion on demand in all circumstances. Such persons should face the reality that the circumstances described in these three exceptions are extremely rare. For example, conception by incest or rape—the circumstance most commonly cited by those who use exceptions to argue for abortion on demand—is involved in only a tiny minority of abortions. More than 95 percent of the millions of abortions performed each year extinguish the life of a fetus conceived by consensual relations. Thus the effect in over 95 percent of abortions is not to vindicate choice but to avoid its consequences. 1 Using arguments of “choice” to try to justify altering the consequences of choice is a classic case of omitting what the Savior called “the weightier matters of the law.”

    A prominent basis for the secular or philosophical arguments for abortion on demand is the argument that a woman should have control over her own body. Not long ago I received a letter from a thoughtful Latter-day Saint outside the United States who analyzed that argument in secular terms. Since his analysis reaches the same conclusion I have urged on religious grounds, I quote it here for the benefit of those most subject to persuasion on this basis:

    “Every woman has, within the limits of nature, the right to choose what will or will not happen to her body. Every woman has, at the same time, the responsibility for the way she uses her body. If by her choice she behaves in such a way that a human fetus is conceived, she has not only the right to but also the responsibility for that fetus. If it is an unwanted pregnancy, she is not justified in ending it with the claim that it interferes with her right to choose. She herself chose what would happen to her body by risking pregnancy. She had her choice. If she has no better reason, her conscience should tell her that abortion would be a highly irresponsible choice.

    “What constitutes a good reason? Since a human fetus has intrinsic and infinite human value, the only good reason for an abortion would be the violation or deprivation of or the threat to the woman’s right to choose what will or will not happen to her body. Social, educational, financial, and personal considerations alone do not outweigh the value of the life that is in the fetus. These considerations by themselves may properly lead to the decision to place the baby for adoption after its birth, but not to end its existence in utero.

    “The woman’s right to choose what will or will not happen to her body is obviously violated by rape or incest. When conception results in such a case, the woman has the moral as well as the legal right to an abortion because the condition of pregnancy is the result of someone else’s irresponsibility, not hers. She does not have to take responsibility for it. To force her by law to carry the fetus to term would be a further violation of her right. She also has the right to refuse an abortion. This would give her the right to the fetus and also the responsibility for it. She could later relinquish this right and this responsibility through the process of placing the baby for adoption after it is born. Whichever way is a responsible choice.”

    The man who wrote those words also applied the same reasoning to the other exceptions allowed by our doctrine—life of the mother and a baby that will not survive birth.

    I conclude this discussion of choice with two more short points.

    If we say we are anti-abortion in our personal life but pro-choice in public policy, we are saying that we will not use our influence to establish public policies that encourage righteous choices on matters God’s servants have defined as serious sins. I urge Latter-day Saints who have taken that position to ask themselves which other grievous sins should be decriminalized or smiled on by the law due to this theory that persons should not be hampered in their choices. Should we decriminalize or lighten the legal consequences of child abuse? of cruelty to animals? of pollution? of fraud? of fathers who choose to abandon their families for greater freedom or convenience?

    Similarly, some reach the pro-choice position by saying we should not legislate morality. Those who take this position should realize that the law of crimes legislates nothing but morality. Should we repeal all laws with a moral basis so that our government will not punish any choices some persons consider immoral? Such an action would wipe out virtually all of the laws against crimes.
    I disagree particularly with his last paragraph, but I wanted to hear the law-school take on this. I don't think that we legislate morality, other than a fairly narrowly-defined ethic of property rights and rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Your thoughts/examples?
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10
  • SoCalCoug
    Ragnar Lodbrok Descendant
    • Nov 2008
    • 5214

    #2
    The reasoning is hard to follow. Unless you are pro-choice in public policy, you will not have the exceptions available to you.

    Also, by that reasoning, we should press for criminalization of everything which we find morally objectionable: abortion, adultery, alcohol, swearing, working on Sunday, etc.

    There has to be a line somewhere.
    If we disagree on something, it's because you're wrong.

    "Somebody needs to kill my trial attorney." — Last words of George Harris, executed in Missouri on Sept. 13, 2000.

    "Nothing is too good to be true, nothing is too good to last, nothing is too wonderful to happen." - Florence Scoville Shinn

    Comment

    • Jeff Lebowski
      Corporate lackey for Jesus
      • Nov 2008
      • 69820

      #3
      If abortion were only allowed for the exceptions indicated by the LDS faith (rape, incest, life of mother in danger) how would we go about deciding when someone qualifies? Actual conviction in court? Suppose a woman is raped and the rapist is never caught. Couldn't someone argue that she wasn't really raped but had engaged in consensual sex with someone? And what defines "life of the mother in danger"? What level of risk is considered acceptable? How do we go about deciding that?
      "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
      "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
      "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

      Comment

      • Jeff Lebowski
        Corporate lackey for Jesus
        • Nov 2008
        • 69820

        #4
        Originally posted by SoCalCoug View Post
        The reasoning is hard to follow. Unless you are pro-choice in public policy, you will not have the exceptions available to you.

        Also, by that reasoning, we should press for criminalization of everything which we find morally objectionable: abortion, adultery, alcohol, swearing, working on Sunday, etc.

        There has to be a line somewhere.
        I think his last paragraph is a copout. I am no lawyer (as SU likes to point out), but that seems like a pretty weak argument to me.
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

        Comment

        • RockyBalboa
          Banned
          • Nov 2008
          • 2127

          #5
          Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
          I think his last paragraph is a copout. I am no lawyer (as SU likes to point out), but that seems like a pretty weak argument to me.
          Specifically why is that paragraph a copout?

          By the way I'm not advocating that you can't be a good Mormon and be pro-choice.

          I'm just curious what about why you think his last paragraph is wrong and why you feel it's a copout.

          Comment

          • Jeff Lebowski
            Corporate lackey for Jesus
            • Nov 2008
            • 69820

            #6
            Originally posted by RockyBalboa View Post
            Specifically why is that paragraph a copout?

            By the way I'm not advocating that you can't be a good Mormon and be pro-choice.

            I'm just curious what about why you think his last paragraph is wrong and why you feel it's a copout.
            I say that not so much in the context of abortion, but regarding the concept of legislating morality in general. See SoCalCoug's reply above. Oaks' statement that laws are a form of legislating morality seems to me to be a gross oversimplification. When people say "You can't legislate morality", they are usually arguing that you shouldn't codify religious beliefs that are not universally held and that do not represent an infringement on the rights of others. Sabbath laws would be a prime example. You could argue that abortion is not a victimless act (an argument I respect). But to dodge the entire argument by simply saying "all laws are moral laws" seams like a weak response to me.
            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

            Comment

            • RockyBalboa
              Banned
              • Nov 2008
              • 2127

              #7
              Okay, thanks.

              Comment

              • ERCougar
                Junior Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 10978

                #8
                Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                I say that not so much in the context of abortion, but regarding the concept of legislating morality in general. See SoCalCoug's reply above. Oaks' statement that laws are a form of legislating morality seems to me to be a gross oversimplification. When people say "You can't legislate morality", they are usually arguing that you shouldn't codify religious beliefs that are not universally held and that do not represent an infringement on the rights of others. Sabbath laws would be a prime example. You could argue that abortion is not a victimless act (an argument I respect). But to dodge the entire argument by simply saying "all laws are moral laws" seams like a weak response to me.

                That's my problem with it too. I tend to agree with his stance on abortion (illegal except cases of rape/incest/mother's life in danger), chiefly because I place more value on the "rights" of the fetus than your typical pro-choicer. But I also think this is a gray zone, so I'll allow some latitude.

                My chief problem is with the last paragraph. For those who have thought about this deeply, do we legislate morality? I think we legislate "rights", but is that just a different form of morality? Where's the line?

                By the way, I think my friend may be all for banning alcohol, smoking, etc. He's a good guy, but has a few crazy ideas.
                At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                Comment

                • ERCougar
                  Junior Member
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 10978

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                  If abortion were only allowed for the exceptions indicated by the LDS faith (rape, incest, life of mother in danger) how would we go about deciding when someone qualifies? Actual conviction in court? Suppose a woman is raped and the rapist is never caught. Couldn't someone argue that she wasn't really raped but had engaged in consensual sex with someone? And what defines "life of the mother in danger"? What level of risk is considered acceptable? How do we go about deciding that?
                  I'm not sure that poses as much of a problem as the point you make later. Obviously there will be judgment calls involved. If we were to avoid any legislation with this potential, we wouldn't be able to legislate very effectively.
                  At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                  -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                  Comment

                  • myboynoah
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 21719

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                    By the way, I think my friend may be all for banning alcohol, smoking, etc. He's a good guy, but has a few crazy ideas.
                    A few?
                    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

                    Comment

                    • RobinFinderson
                      Banned
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 10548

                      #11
                      A long time ago I started a thread on CougarBoard called:

                      The 2005 Anti-Choice Challenge!

                      Here was the text from my post --
                      The challenge is simple. Devise a simple outline of laws that would allow the LDS church's official policy on abortion to be the law of the land, without being essentially pro-choice.

                      Avoid these pitfalls:

                      1. This is not a federalism issue. Write the law so that it could be applied at either the federal or state level, depending on some unknown future status of constitutional protection for abortion.

                      2. Try to keep the law constitutional using current judicial standards (minus the protection of abortion, of course).

                      3. Keep the law FULLY inclusive for all women that fall under the umbrella of the LDS church's current policy. ALL victims of rape and incest need to have access to abortion, regardless of any final government recognition of their status of being a rape/incest survivor -- most rape goes unreported, and most reported rapes go unconvicted. The same is true for victims of incest.

                      Anyhow, I don't think it is possible, but I would love to see people give it a try.

                      Comment

                      • TripletDaddy
                        sweet triple
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 58186

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                        That's my problem with it too. I tend to agree with his stance on abortion (illegal except cases of rape/incest/mother's life in danger), chiefly because I place more value on the "rights" of the fetus than your typical pro-choicer. But I also think this is a gray zone, so I'll allow some latitude.

                        My chief problem is with the last paragraph. For those who have thought about this deeply, do we legislate morality? I think we legislate "rights", but is that just a different form of morality? Where's the line?

                        By the way, I think my friend may be all for banning alcohol, smoking, etc. He's a good guy, but has a few crazy ideas.
                        I guess it depends on how you are defining morality.

                        Personally, I can think of numerous examples wherein we have legislated morality.......adultery was and continues to be "illegal" in many states. Why would we have laws against married people having sex, but for legislating morality? Prop 8. Prohibition. Laws against sodomy (for adults, of course, not as it applies to pedophilia), laws against adult pornography, etc. These are all moral issues rather than "legal" issues. Compare with murder, arson, robbery, rape, etc.

                        Yes, there are elements of morality in all our laws, but there are also very practical civil issues with murder and theft, regardless of one's religious affiliations or disbelief.

                        just a thought.
                        Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

                        sigpic

                        Comment

                        • Jeff Lebowski
                          Corporate lackey for Jesus
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 69820

                          #13
                          How about this:

                          While all laws may have some basis in morality, not all moral concepts should be codified by law.

                          When people say "You can't legislate morality" they are not arguing that robbery should be legal because "thou shalt not steal" is a moral code. They are arguing that many moral choices should be left to individuals.
                          "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                          "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                          "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                          Comment

                          • ERCougar
                            Junior Member
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 10978

                            #14
                            Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
                            A long time ago I started a thread on CougarBoard called:

                            The 2005 Anti-Choice Challenge!

                            Here was the text from my post --
                            How about this?
                            Abortion is legal in the following cases:
                            Incest - shown by DNA testing
                            Rape - woman must undergo a sexual assault exam (within say, 3-4 days of event) and file charges.
                            Woman's life in danger - this is a real gray area, I realize

                            I realize the risk of increasing false accusations of rape (believe me, I see this all the time in the ER), but rape exams are NOT a pleasant experience--hopefully the combination of filing charges and the exam would deter somewhat.
                            At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                            -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                            Comment

                            • ERCougar
                              Junior Member
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 10978

                              #15
                              Originally posted by TripletDaddy View Post
                              I guess it depends on how you are defining morality.

                              Personally, I can think of numerous examples wherein we have legislated morality.......adultery was and continues to be "illegal" in many states. Why would we have laws against married people having sex, but for legislating morality? Prop 8. Prohibition. Laws against sodomy (for adults, of course, not as it applies to pedophilia), laws against adult pornography, etc. These are all moral issues rather than "legal" issues. Compare with murder, arson, robbery, rape, etc.

                              Yes, there are elements of morality in all our laws, but there are also very practical civil issues with murder and theft, regardless of one's religious affiliations or disbelief.

                              just a thought.
                              What "moral" laws are actually enforced? It seems like these are for the most part vestigial.

                              Can't count Prop 8, because this is my basis for arguing against it--we shouldn't be legislating morality.
                              At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                              -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                              Comment

                              Working...