Regarding the LDS view of premarital sex...

[RobinFinderson]

Would it really be so bad if premarital sex were strongly discouraged, but not entirely verbotin? I mean the church already encourages young couples who conceive out of wedlock to seriously consider getting married, even when common sense might dictate otherwise. Why not continue to encourage responsibility, but take the 'sin' out of the equation? Does anyone really believe that premarital nookie, even unrepentant premarital nookie, followed by years of responsible, married nookie, is going to disqualify someone from busting ass on an eternity of Celestial service projects?

How bad would this be for a new LDS policy on premarital sex:

There is a great deal of wisdom to the long-standing tradition to reserve sexual activity to marriage. The procreative powers practiced between a man and a woman have the potential to forge powerful emotional bonds that can only reach their eternal potential when sealed in the bonds of holy matrimony. These bonds and the expectations of God and His church community are multiplied when the exercise of procreative powers results in the conception of a child. In these situations, true followers of Christ will commit their time, labor and sustenance to the welfare of the child. It is normal in such a situation for an unwed couple to prayerfully consider marriage, since God has promised great blessings for those who raise up strong families in righteousness. It is because of the serious responsibilities that potentially beckon with the exercise of procreative powers that prophets since the time of Adam have raised powerful witness of the wisdom of preserving sexual intimacy for marriage. But whatever path the saints might follow, God commands His children to accept responsibility for the consequences of their choices. A man and woman have no greater responsibility in life than to tend to the welfare of their children.

I mean really, what would be the harm in this?

[BlueHair]

The church doesn't decide what "sin" is. God does.

[RobinFinderson]

The church doesn't decide what "sin" is. God does.

Maybe. Or maybe God reveals to His prophets the IDEA of a good life, and the prophets are entrusted to devise a system for bringing about God's plan.

[pellegrino]

I have to be honest, as I contemplate what I want to teach my daughters in this life, I would much rather that they make a mistake out of wedlock than suffer in an unhappy marriage because of unhealthy attitudes towards sex.

Do not misunderstand me. I do not want my daughters to be sexually active before marriage, and they will know that, but it would be better to learn from a mistake than to live a life full of anxiety about one of the greatest experiences in life.

[wuapinmon]

I have to be honest, as I contemplate what I want to teach my daughters in this life, I would much rather that they make a mistake out of wedlock than suffer in an unhappy marriage because of unhealthy attitudes towards sex.

Do not misunderstand me. I do not want my daughters to be sexually active before marriage, and they will know that, but it would be better to learn from a mistake than to live a life full of anxiety about one of the greatest experiences in life.

I wish I could figure out how to have my wife understand this idea without her thinking that I'm saying premarital sex is fine.

[marsupial]

I wish I could figure out how to have my wife understand this idea without her thinking that I'm saying premarital sex is fine.

Was this an idea you were trying to get across while you were dating?

[Green Monstah]

Was this an idea you were trying to get across while you were dating?

Lol.

I think you open the floodgates once you take the prohibition away. In high school, I was a walking crucible of hormones. I would have jumped on nearly any girl who would have me (luckily, I am not a handsome man) but for the prohibition. On the other hand, I view sex between mature, unmarried adults in a much different light. They are probably better equipped to deal with the emotions of a sexual relationship, particularly once the relationship ends. I've seen teenaged boys and girls who had sex and broke up become emotionally devastated and jaded.

I think more importantly than easing up on the restriction, we need to help teens who have lost their virginity and feel bad about it to heal spiritually and emotionally. Sex is quite natural, but we may make these kids feel like used and spoiled meat for slipping up during teenaged years.

[Uncle Ted]

From the study of Premarital Sex and the Risk of Divorce...

This article examines the relationship between premarital sexual activity and the long-term risk of divorce among U.S. women married between 1965 and 1985. Simple cross-tabulations from the 1988 National Survey of Family Growth indicate that women who were sexually active prior to marriage faced a considerably higher risk of marital disruption than women were were virgin brides.

I believe the study concludes that nonvirgin brides increase their odds of divorce by something like 60%.

I have also read that 58% of LDS girls are sexually active before marriage and the LDS have a relatively high rate of divorce among other whites citing religious affiliation.

Both of these studies are over 20 years old so maybe someone knows of some newer data.

[RobinFinderson]

Lol.

I think you open the floodgates once you take the prohibition away. In high school, I was a walking crucible of hormones. I would have jumped on nearly any girl who would have me (luckily, I am not a handsome man) but for the prohibition. On the other hand, I view sex between mature, unmarried adults in a much different light. They are probably better equipped to deal with the emotions of a sexual relationship, particularly once the relationship ends. I've seen teenaged boys and girls who had sex and broke up become emotionally devastated and jaded.

I think more importantly than easing up on the restriction, we need to help teens who have lost their virginity and feel bad about it to heal spiritually and emotionally. Sex is quite natural, but we may make these kids feel like used and spoiled meat for slipping up during teenaged years.

RedSox, some of what you describe rings true to my own experience as a teen. Here are a couple of things that I can say about that time: My teenage years through the end of my mission represent the pinnacle of my religious belief. As a result, when I slipped up in the area of 'procreative powers,' it was probably a lot more devastating to me than it would have been if I had less faith.

Folks around here sometimes speculate about the relationship between LDS culture and members' sexual hangups. I think that it is pretty reasonable to think that the church's prohibition on premarital sex contributes directly to the increased likelihood that an adult will have sexual hangups, and here is why -- Given the strength of the biological drive, a certain amount of yielding to temptation is inevitable. While there may be some individuals who never yield an inch to temptation in this area, even that kind of spiritual fortitude could later manifest itself as a sexual hangup. But for those people who DO believe, yet yield to temptation, the emotional impact of that sin (and its potential to have lasting 'hangup' consequences) is probably proportional to the level of the person's faith. As a teen, I went to Seminary every day (I woke up at 4am every morning, to finish my paper route, so I could attend seminary at 6am), I was my Priest's Q President (or whatever that title was), I was a straight A student, and a regular youth speaker at my stake level due to the fact that I was successfully sharing the gospel with more of my friends than anyone else my age. But behind the image of that ideal LDS youth, I felt like a complete fraud, and I was pretty certain that I was going to go to burn in hell for being such a hypocrite, and all of that because no matter how hard I tried, I kept yielding to the temptation to 'fly solo.' If Pavlov's dogs couldn't help but salivate at the ringing of a bell, what do you think is going to happen to someone who for years masturbates then immediately feels like throwing up out of guilt? IMO, that is a recipe for a serious sexual hangup.

So, what does the church stand to lose? Take the 'sin' out of changing one's own oil, and create the strongest possible culture for accepting parental responsibility when sex results in pregnancy, and my guess is that you would have the same cultural results regarding the quantity of premarital sex, but you would have way less guilt and fewer hangups.

[Green Monstah]

We need to address the issue of flying solo. I just don't see what so wrong with it. To borrow a bad and infamous analogy, I don't think there's anything wrong with the little factory letting off steam if it keeps the little factory running smoothly for decades.

There needs to be some release, I'm just not sure green-lighting premarital sex is the right answer for the church.

[Eddie]

If you tie the "no premarital sex" advice to simply not wanting to have children out of wedlock - or at least identify that as the primary reason for not doing so - then I think you run the risk of more kids participating, but just making sure they use protection.

I don't think you can convince a teen that part of the sexual act is the emotional intimacy and closeness that is created. And that this is why it plays a big role in the marriage relationship. I think they would gloss right over that part of the advice and figure that as long as no one is getting pregnant - feel free to do whatever you want. Because they all think they have the maturity to handle it.

And you end up with messed up kids for different reasons.

Maybe this is similar to the arguement that drugs shouldn't be legalized because some folks can't handle it and will get addicted. Which is strange for me because I'm almost convinced that they should be. But I suppose the difference in arguements is that your advice isn't tied to any age - and legalized drugs would be.

Anyway - I guess I'm just saying that I think your solution to one problem would do nothing more than create other problems. Would it do so for more people or fewer? I don't know.

[dabrockster]

I can understand Robin's feelings and myself have gone through those same feelings. No need to explain my indiscretions, but I'll just say it was very limited in frequency. I had feelings of guilt rather quickly after the fact and I think it does impact a young teenager and could cause sexual relationship problems after they are married. There can be a connection between ejaculation and guilt that could easily linger beyond a person being single and thinking it as a sin. I think I had the same feelings at first after being married. However, it does not last and when two people are so open with each other they are able to move and discuss these things and come to a happy sexual relationship where there is no feeling of remorse or confusion...

One thing I think differs from my experiences to Robin's (And not knowing full detail on his past, I could be wrong). I had a good YM President who was very open and honest with me. He never made me feel horrible and his teachings made me feel comfortable in my mistakes and that it IS/WAS natural to have those sexual desires and if acted upon you are not an evil person nor different then any other kid... My Bishop also played a vital role in this process as a teenager.. I think my shame but willingness to have these discussion with them helped me to not feel so horrible about myself. Did they preach to me to remain a virgin. Yes they did and explained more importantly about real reasons beyond just it being a sin as a reason to wait...

One thing that I think is similar to Robin is how I was raised. I cam from a large family (6 boys total). My parents had small discussions with me about sex, but it was mainly taught by my older siblings or school. I think that is just the generation of the parents we had.. It is not their fault just not as open to have these discussion with their kids.. I think the openness we will have with our kids will define and ensure they do not have those same feelings.. Teenagers will be teenagers and we understand that but if they hate us at one point the comfort to know they can still come to us about anything will lead them to us.. And openness about sex will be discussed among us. In fact my 6 year old had a long discussion with my wife and why he gets a woody. In fact when I got home we discussed it even more with me.. I can only hope those nurturing open discussion will have a lasting impact that he can come to me or his mom any time...

Do I think we should allow sexual relations.. That would be a strong NO. There are much more difficult and more communicative ways for families to raise their children then to provide sexual promiscuity.. In fact, I'd say this response Robin is more of a cop-out to addressing the problem...

[RobinFinderson]

BTW, this thread is the fulfillment of a promise.

I have a hard time believing that a policy change, represented by how I phrased it in the first post, would result in an LDS Sexual Revolution.

Also, as far as extramarital sex goes, the church wouldn't need to change its policy, and thus the temple covenants would NOT need to be updated with the new policy on premarital sex.

[Uncle Ted]

I'm just not sure green-lighting premarital sex is the right answer for the church.

Maybe the church doesn't need to "green-light" premarital sex but just lighten up on divorce. Maybe they could take a lesson from the Catholic church and for the right amount tithing paid they can grant an annulment, in the church's eyes, to a "bad" marriage.

[KillerDog]

I often wonder what God's expectations really are. You know, if I were to sit down with him and have a man to man talk about premarital sex and sexual sin, what would he say? The reason I wonder about this is because I see people all the time, particularly intelligent people, set a specific bar to get a specific result and the result is often less than the bar. I believe people do this because you are more likely to get your goal if you shoot a bit beyond it. This makes me believe there is a likelihood that God sets a standard regarding premarital sex knowing that his children won't be able to get it done. He also knows that by setting the high standard, they will get done what he is really aiming at which could be a healthy respect for procreative powers or a generaly reticence to lose virginity too young or something like that. If God is really smart like we all think he is, it would be silly to assume he isn't getting what he wants/needs from his people.