"There is no end to race."

[PaloAltoCougar]

Our ward choir is practicing "If You Could Hie to Heaven", an arrangement of the Phelps' hymn, "If Could Hie to Kolob," that eliminates the titular tribute to Battlestar Galactica. I don't care much for the song, as its minor key and repetitious, even hypnotic, refrain, sound weird to me (I'm reminded of the eerie choral arrangement of "Spider Pig" at the end of The Simpsons Movie).

The chorus includes the following litany:

There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

Now I'm fine with the first three items, and they're consistent with Joseph Smith's teachings that were fairly revolutionary for his time. But what of the fourth? Can anyone explain "there is no end to race"? I'd quit the choir in protest, but I'm sleeping with the director and my principles have limits.

[TripletDaddy]

I actually love the music. one of the more challenging hymns to sing in parts.

not a great one for investigators to hear.

[PaloAltoCougar]

not a great one for investigators to hear.

I'm hoping someone can provide an uplifting explanation for the phrase. SU's not online at the moment; perhaps he'll deliver upon his return.

In the absence of such an explanation, I'm curious why someone doesn't do an edit--"there is no end to grace", perhaps? If we can edit out some of my favorites (e.g., "the world has no use for the drone", "Yoohoo unto Jesus", "Teach me all that I must KNOW", etc.), why not tweak this one?

[SteelBlue]

I googled it and found this discussion on Times and Seasons.

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/no-end-to-race-if-you-could-hie-to-kolob/

[CardiacCoug]

I hope it's false doctrine. I'm gonna be pretty pissed if I'm still afflicted with White Man's Disease on the basketball courts of the Celestial Kingdom.

[LA Ute]

I'm hoping someone can provide an uplifting explanation for the phrase.

I'll try (warning - pure speculation follows): W.W. Phelps was a pretty literate guy, one of the most prolific writers in the fledgling Church. He has more hymns in the book than anyone. My guess is he was simply searching for a rhyme, and "race" is a pretty easy rhyme. I think he was referring to the human race. That seems to make the most sense, unless you can read into it a darker reference to the superiority of a particular race. Using the "plain meaning" standard, we'd need some more evidence before we can find additional significance in the word "race" here.

How'd I do?

[PaloAltoCougar]

I googled it and found this discussion on Times and Seasons.

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php...-hie-to-kolob/

That was helpful, if a bit disturbing as the first comment reflected my own unoriginal thoughts. At first I thought the race = human race comment was a bit too easy, but I came around as I read through the comments. I feel better now, and will sing lustily tomorrow afternoon.

I hope it's false doctrine. I'm gonna be pretty pissed if I'm still afflicted with White Man's Disease on the basketball courts of the Celestial Kingdom.

I had the same thought at the outset, as I really hope I am not melanin-challenged through the eternities. When they substituted "pure" for "white" in the "white and delightsome" clauses of the BoM, it removed the last bit of consolation for the heavy burden that my lineage has imposed.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I'll try (warning - pure speculation follows): W.W. Phelps was a pretty literate guy, one of the most prolific writers in the fledgling Church. He has more hymns in the book than anyone. My guess is he was simply searching for a rhyme, and "race" is a pretty easy rhyme. I think he was referring to the human race. That seems to make the most sense, unless you can read into it a darker reference to the superiority of a particular race. Using the "plain meaning" standard, we'd need some more evidence before we can find additional significance in the word "race" here.

How'd I do?

Whoops, we were cross-posting and I missed this. That's a fair explanation, as there's nothing in the context of the hymn to suggest he meant anything racial in the sense I was fearing.

[il Padrino Ute]

Our ward choir is practicing "If You Could Hie to Heaven", an arrangement of the Phelps' hymn, "If Could Hie to Kolob," that eliminates the titular tribute to Battlestar Galactica. I don't care much for the song, as its minor key and repetitious, even hypnotic, refrain, sound weird to me (I'm reminded of the eerie choral arrangement of "Spider Pig" at the end of The Simpsons Movie).

The chorus includes the following litany:

There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

Now I'm fine with the first three items, and they're consistent with Joseph Smith's teachings that were fairly revolutionary for his time. But what of the fourth? Can anyone explain "there is no end to race"? I'd quit the choir in protest, but I'm sleeping with the director and my principles have limits.

Perhaps it's a reference to the Iron Man Triathlon.

[MormonMystic]

"There is no End to the Race of the Gods"

Our ward choir is practicing "If You Could Hie to Heaven", an arrangement of the Phelps' hymn, "If Could Hie to Kolob," that eliminates the titular tribute to Battlestar Galactica. I don't care much for the song, as its minor key and repetitious, even hypnotic, refrain, sound weird to me (I'm reminded of the eerie choral arrangement of "Spider Pig" at the end of The Simpsons Movie).

The chorus includes the following litany:

There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

Now I'm fine with the first three items, and they're consistent with Joseph Smith's teachings that were fairly revolutionary for his time. But what of the fourth? Can anyone explain "there is no end to race"? I'd quit the choir in protest, but I'm sleeping with the director and my principles have limits.

I don't believe this hymn particularly reflects early Mormon racism, or has anything at all to do with the "human race" per se. Rather, given the entirety of the hymn, Phelps is apparently alluding to the LDS concept of the eternal regression of Deity -- that is to say, the "race" of which there is no end is the "race of the Gods in eternity." This closing verse, then, is Phelps addressing what he rhetorically asks in the *first* verse:

Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,
Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?

The answer he provides is in this closing verse, where he emphasizes our inability to discover the beginning of the eternal regression of Deity:

There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

While it is true that early Mormons held views in common with their contemporaries regarding race, civilization and even eugenics, I don't think this is what we are seeing here. Even if it were, more troubling for me is when we forget our early theological roots, and then do things like re-write a hymn to "clean it up" and bring it closer to our current theological perspectives. In this particular case, we do so by removing the word "Kolob" and sometimes entirely eliminating the final verse (as is sometimes done in the recently sanitized "If You Could Hie to Heaven").

Kindest,
MormonMystic

[Commando]

Nice first post^^ So, by which name did we all previously know you?

[clackamascoug]

BYU Choir changed/substituted the word Grace for Race. I think its better fit.

[grapevine]

I have never sang in a choir. Won't either. Though some people have tried to drag me to do it.

[Moliere]

I have never sang in a choir. Won't either. Though some people have tried to drag me to do it.

We are kindred spirits!

I don't believe this hymn particularly reflects early Mormon racism, or has anything at all to do with the "human race" per se. Rather, given the entirety of the hymn, Phelps is apparently alluding to the LDS concept of the eternal regression of Deity -- that is to say, the "race" of which there is no end is the "race of the Gods in eternity." This closing verse, then, is Phelps addressing what he rhetorically asks in the *first* verse:

Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,
Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?

The answer he provides is in this closing verse, where he emphasizes our inability to discover the beginning of the eternal regression of Deity.

While it is true that early Mormons held views in common with their contemporaries regarding race, civilization and even eugenics, I don't think this is what we are seeing here. Even if it were, more troubling for me is when we forget our early theological roots, and then do things like re-write a hymn to "clean it up" and bring it closer to our current theological perspectives. In this particular case, we do so by removing the word "Kolob" and sometimes entirely eliminating the final verse (as is sometimes done in the recently sanitized "If You Could Hie to Heaven").

Kindest,
MormonMystic

This is a great explanation. Given the church's recent castration of the eternal progress doctrine I whole heartedly expect any upcoming versions of this song to be changed.

[TexTechCoug]

We are kindred spirits!



This is a great explanation. Given the church's recent castration of the eternal progress doctrine I whole heartedly expect any upcoming versions of this song to be changed.

What the? What did I miss on getting rid of Eternal Progression? That would be a big problem for me.