Changing ordinances

[LA Ute]

My totally uninformed, unresearched, off-the-top-of-my head opinion is that the temple endowment ordinances are to a large extent (but not 100%) didactic. Hence the many modifications over the years. Baptism seems to be a little more fixed, in that the multi-level symbolism of immersion seems to be a critical part of the ordinance. (See, e.g., 3 Nephi 11:25-28.) So it doesn't bother me that the endowment is modified.

If President Monson were to announce tomorrow that for the sake of convenience, baptisms were to be done by sprinkling, it would be no different than the changes to the initiatories. Members ought not get hung up on the forms of symbology; what matters is that we are doing what we have been commanded to do.

For the reasons above I think do not think changing baptism is no different than changing the endowment, but if President Monson announced that change with support from the FP and Q12 (a very unlikely ocurrence, but we're talking hypotheticals here) I'd certainly accept that. What would we do with all those baptismal fonts? They'd be great for the Cub Scout sailing regatta, I guess.

[RC Vikings]

We have the best of both worlds. We can throw out that we are the same as the ancient church BUT when we need to tweak things a little we've got modern revelation to fall back on. This is kinda the same theory my wife works under.

[Sullyute]

My totally uninformed, unresearched, off-the-top-of-my head opinion is that the temple endowment ordinances are to a large extent (but not 100%) didactic. Hence the many modifications over the years.

For the reasons above I think do not think changing baptism is no different than changing the endowment, but if President Monson announced that change with support from the FP and Q12 (a very unlikely ocurrence, but we're talking hypotheticals here) I'd certainly accept that. What would we do with all those baptismal fonts? They'd be great for the Cub Scout sailing regatta, I guess.

I agree with you that with the changes that have been made, if we didn't think that the ordinances were largely didactic (I had to look that up ) that we would have some problems on our hands with practically any change in an ordinance.

The first thing that came to my mind with your hypothectical was Wilford Woodruff "prophetic" change on polygamy. He made the change and sent it to the presses before most of the twelve even knew about it.

So how much power does the prophet have in making changes or can it only come from the first presidency or Q12. History has shown that the prophet and the first presidency has gain a lot of power of the years that use to rest with the whole Q12. So how far can the legendary phrase "when the prophet speaks the debate is over" be taken.

[LA Ute]

I agree with you that with the changes that have been made, if we didn't think that the ordinances were largely didactic (I had to look that up ) that we would have some problems on our hands with practically any change in an ordinance.

The first thing that came to my mind with your hypothectical was Wilford Woodruff "prophetic" change on polygamy. He made the change and sent it to the presses before most of the twelve even knew about it.

So how much power does the prophet have in making changes or can it only come from the first presidency or Q12. History has shown that the prophet and the first presidency has gain a lot of power of the years that use to rest with the whole Q12. So how far can the legendary phrase "when the prophet speaks the debate is over" be taken.

Heck, if I knew that I'd be...I don't know what I'd be. God? Anyway, when it comes to honest-to-goodness, no-doubt-about-it prophetic guidance, I'm tempted to use the famous Potter Stewart analysis for pornography: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. Slippery, I know, but it works for me, and I don't know of a better way to approach the issue.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The first thing that came to my mind with your hypothectical was Wilford Woodruff "prophetic" change on polygamy. He made the change and sent it to the presses before most of the twelve even knew about it.

I learned this a few months ago and it blew my mind. Most of the apostles learned about it by reading it in the newspaper. Several were shown a draft prior to the announcement but it was presented as "Hey, what would be your thoughts on something like this?" and almost every one was completely against it. I was also surprised to learn that WW did not write the manifesto. It was developed by some kind of secret committee.

[LA Ute]

I learned this a few months ago and it blew my mind. Most of the apostles learned about it by reading it in the newspaper. Several were shown a draft prior to the announcement but it was presented as "Hey, what would be your thoughts on something like this?" and almost every one was completely against it. I was also surprised to learn that WW did not write the manifesto. It was developed by some kind of secret committee.

This is really fascinating stuff. My inner apologist tells me that those were such desperate times that truly extraordinary measures were necessary. That's the best I can do.

[TripletDaddy]

This is really fascinating stuff. My inner apologist tells me that those were such desperate times that truly extraordinary measures were necessary. That's the best I can do.

In trying your best, you are actually being counterproductive. If you don't know and have no idea, why make anything up?

[LA Ute]

In trying your best, you are actually being counterproductive. If you don't know and have no idea, why make anything up?

I should have labeled my comment an assumption, or uninformed speculation, which is exactly what it is. I hope I have not damaged the time-space continuum by failing to do so.

[Sullyute]

In trying your best, you are actually being counterproductive. If you don't know and have no idea, why make anything up?

I don't want to speak for LA but I think that he is just saying how he personally deals with the cognitive dissonance not that he is trying to persuade others of his opinion.

It is facinating stuff to mull over in our heads or on CUF.

Edit: LA spoke for himself before I could, so you can ignore what I said.

[Moliere]

In trying your best, you are actually being counterproductive. If you don't know and have no idea, why make anything up?

Because it is what a correlated mind has to do to feel comfortable.

[LA Ute]

I don't want to speak for LA but I think that he is just saying how he personally deals with the cognitive dissonance not that he is trying to persuade others of his opinion.

It is facinating stuff to mull over in our heads or on CUF.

Yup.

Because it is what a correlated mind has to do to feel comfortable.

Meanie.

[TripletDaddy]

I should have labeled my comment an assumption, or uninformed speculation, which is exactly what it is. I hope I have not damaged the time-space continuum by failing to do so.

Everyone would be well served if teachers, leaders, and members would be as fast to label their comments as personal assumptions as they are to jump in an try to explain things. This goes for apologists as a well as antagonists.

How many threads and posts have we read here that are based on the foundation of something the poster was told by a well-intentioned yet misinformed leader or authority figure of their past? Way too many for my tastes.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This is really fascinating stuff. My inner apologist tells me that those were such desperate times that truly extraordinary measures were necessary. That's the best I can do.

I am happy that WW ended polygamy. I was just shocked to see how it went down. I suppose that goes a long way to explain why there was so much post-manifesto polygamy, especially among the apostles.

[LA Ute]

Everyone would be well served if teachers, leaders, and members would be as fast to label their comments as personal assumptions as they are to jump in an try to explain things. This goes for apologists as a well as antagonists.

How many threads and posts have we read here that are based on the foundation of something the poster was told by a well-intentioned yet misinformed leader or authority figure of their past? Way too many for my tastes.

When I said, "My inner apologist tells me that those were such desperate times that truly extraordinary measures were necessary," wasn't it pretty clear that I was offering whimsical, off-the-cuff musings, and was making no effort to "jump in and explain things?"

I am happy that WW ended polygamy. I was just shocked to see how it went down. I suppose that goes a long way to explain why there was so much post-manifesto polygamy, especially among the apostles.

I was too. I wonder what kind of, um, frank discussions went on among the FP and the Q12 at their next joint meeting?

[Paperback Writer]

This is really fascinating stuff. My inner apologist tells me that those were such desperate times that truly extraordinary measures were necessary. That's the best I can do.

It is my opinion (personal assumption) that David O. McKay should have done the same thing with the "priesthood issue" in the 1950s rather than wait for a consensus in the Q12.