Your thoughts on church leaders

[Surfah]

That's a fascinating story, TD. I can just imagine the various reactions.

People are interesting creatures.

[TripletDaddy]

People are interesting creatures.

I used the "family filter" to my advantage at home on a few occasions.

Actually, if memory serves me well, I tried to use the "family filter" to my advantage at home on a few occasions.

[LA Ute]

I am not trying to twist anything. Honestly, I am trying to understand what you are saying. With all due respect, your reasoning seems ambiguous to me. Maybe I am mule-headed.

We see this a lot with engineers.

One of my old stake presidents (and one of the best people I have ever met, btw...this guy was and is top notch) shared a thought during stake conference regarding something he called "the family filter." He said that before he made a decision, he asked, "will doing _____ strengthen my family?" He encouraged all of us to do the same.

I post on CUF only because it strengthens my family.

[grapevine]

Well, that's kind of like flock shooting, but I'll give you a couple off the top of my head. We were asked by our stake not to attend a local firework show on Sunday, and most people in the stake complied. I can't think of any spiritual or physical harm that following this counsel caused. We're asked by the brethren to have food storage. Again, this seems like harmless counsel whether right or wrong.

If He doesn't value obedience, why should leaders counsel us at all? Why net just let us all figure things out for ourselves? Also, I don't see how the expectation of obedience has any effect on our agency. We are still free to obey or disobey.

Our local fireworks were on Sunday and were not announced in church. Someone mentioned them in opening exercise and Bishop said community event. One guy got up in testimony meeting and announced the potluck tonight on Sunday. I went to fireworks on Sunday before. One of the You make the call things I guess.

[grapevine]

Dalling gave a talk were he said the spirit won't sustain criticism of leaders. Too lazy to look for it right now. And who cares that George Washington had an affair as a teenager.

My sp has to get an apartment in another town during the week as he had to move his work. Great man I think. I was in church a little early made his way over to shake hands. They did not ask for calling.

I remember on my mission one Elderly Lady could not wait for the Bishop to be realesed. Gone all the time pretends she did not exist. Attention starved. Like he has time for undivided attention of every member. If someone has been throught the temple how can they feel comfortable criticizing those called to preside over them who did not ask for the calling.

When I hear so and so does not go to church because of bishop it says more about there character than bishops that does not seek to offend people tellse them what they need to hear. In reality they are smarter than the Lord on some things don't want to keep commandments. Blaming bishop is convenient excuse for not keeping commandments and covenants.

Neal talked of people who criticize those they don't sustain, funds they don't contribute too and chip is on your shoulder. SWK in MOF railed on those that give no time for church service but are critics of those that do.

People that criticize those called to preside over them. Well it better describes the critics than the leaders.

[BlueHair]

Well, that's kind of like flock shooting, but I'll give you a couple off the top of my head. We were asked by our stake not to attend a local firework show on Sunday, and most people in the stake complied. I can't think of any spiritual or physical harm that following this counsel caused. We're asked by the brethren to have food storage. Again, this seems like harmless counsel whether right or wrong.

If He doesn't value obedience, why should leaders counsel us at all? Why net just let us all figure things out for ourselves? Also, I don't see how the expectation of obedience has any effect on our agency. We are still free to obey or disobey.

There would be a very important distinction for me. Is the counsel coming from God or the SP? If it's not from God, why would anyone feel the need to obey the Stake President unless you are a kid and he is your dad?

[grapevine]

The first section of the Doctrine and Covenants tells you why you need to obey your Stake President and Bishop. But onto people that complained about there bishop. After complaining about lack of attention and saying this is the church of Jesus Christ. Would Jesus condone complaining of the person he called to preside over you? Also would a true disciple of Christ criticize the person called to preside over them. He is the one that calls the leaders. As BRM said it is our job to listen or remain silent.

Saying this is his church than criticizing his leaders. Not something a disciple of Christ does.

[LA Ute]

I hope you will all forgive this seeming appeal to authority. It's just that D.H. Oaks says it better than I can:

We all act upon or give obedience to knowledge. Whether in science or religion, our obedience is not blind when we act upon knowledge suited to the subject of our action. A scientist receives and acts upon a trusted certification of the content or conditions of a particular experiment. In matters of religion, a believer’s source of knowledge is spiritual, but the principle is the same. In the case of Latter-day Saints, when the Holy Ghost gives our souls a witness of the truth of the restored gospel and the calling of a modern prophet, our choice to follow those teachings is not blind obedience.

Dallin H. Oaks, "Testimony" (emphasis added).

[BlueHair]

The first section of the Doctrine and Covenants tells you why you need to obey your Stake President and Bishop. But onto people that complained about there bishop. After complaining about lack of attention and saying this is the church of Jesus Christ. Would Jesus condone complaining of the person he called to preside over you? Also would a true disciple of Christ criticize the person called to preside over them. He is the one that calls the leaders. As BRM said it is our job to listen or remain silent.
Saying this is his church than criticizing his leaders. Not something a disciple of Christ does.

This is in stark contrast to what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught. I would put this type of teaching in the "harmful" category.

My question is does God really care about firework shows, shirt color, facial hair, etc.? My guess is no.

[Pheidippides]

I hope you will all forgive this seeming appeal to authority. It's just that D.H. Oaks says it better than I can:



Dallin H. Oaks, "Testimony" (emphasis added).

I absolutely reject this syllogistic argument. I'm sorry, but I do. This is the "if the Book of Mormon is true, the Gospel is True, and Joseph Smith is a Prophet" argument that I used so much as a missionary, except taken to an extreme. I believe TSM to be a modern day prophet, but I don't necessarily believe everything he says as a result.

[Moliere]

There would be a very important distinction for me. Is the counsel coming from God or the SP? If it's not from God, why would anyone feel the need to obey the Stake President unless you are a kid and he is your dad?

Why can divine guidance not come from a stake presidents mind? Why can divine guidance only come from the spirit? God gave us our ability to reason and I personally think that when we study things out in our mind that can be a form of revelation. This seems to be in line with many scriptures. Also, wasn't it James and John that accompanied Peter to visit the man Adam?

[LA Ute]

I absolutely reject this syllogistic argument. I'm sorry, but I do. This is the "if the Book of Mormon is true, the Gospel is True, and Joseph Smith is a Prophet" argument that I used so much as a missionary, except taken to an extreme. I believe TSM to be a modern day prophet, but I don't necessarily believe everything he says as a result.

I think you're knocking down a straw man. In Elder Oaks' statement do not see anything like what you are criticizing here. He's just saying that "when the Holy Ghost gives our souls a witness of the truth of the restored gospel and the calling of a modern prophet, our choice to follow those teachings is not blind obedience." What am I missing?

[Pheidippides]

I think you're knocking down a straw man. In Elder Oaks' statement do not see anything like what you are criticizing here. He's just saying that "when the Holy Ghost gives our souls a witness of the truth of the restored gospel and the calling of a modern prophet, our choice to follow those teachings is not blind obedience." What am I missing?

You are missing my point of view.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I would be very curious to see how Dallin Oaks defines blind obedience.

[UtahDan]

I hope you will all forgive this seeming appeal to authority. It's just that D.H. Oaks says it better than I can:



Dallin H. Oaks, "Testimony" (emphasis added).

This reminds me of a story my Dad tells about being a teenager and not wanting to go to church (maybe I have told it before?). He would wake up and not want to go and tell my grandpa who would say "son, that is between you and the Lord." Dad would then feel guilty decide that he should go. One Sunday after such a conversation, my Dad came in and said "I have asked the Lord and we have decided that I don't need to go to church today." My grandfather replied, "get up stair and get your clothes on now."