DesNews editorial on BKP talk and reaction

[Pheidippides]

I see. So if a gay person makes a pass, the natural response should be to beat the shit out of him. It is that kind of thinking that led to Matthew Shepard being tied to a fence outside of Laramie.

You also have to explain this line:

Sounds to me like he is wishing that he could have gotten in a few punches himself.

Some things are just indefensible. We should be distancing ourselves from such thinking, not justifying it.

By the way, this is not some obscure talk given at a zone conference in Peru. This is the famous "To Young Men Only" talk given in a priesthood session of GC that was made into a pamphlet and widely distributed for years. My mother gave me a copy when I was in high school.

Anybody who gives my kid a copy of that talk is going to get floored by me.

In seriousness, I told my wife about this last night. She was unaware of that talk and was quite taken aback. I was raised on this sort of ethos and very much would have decked my companion if he would have tried to make a pass at me at the time. Nobody did, so good news there.

Look, if your companion is actually try to rape or abuse you forcefully punch away. I don't think anybody has an issue with that. But if your companion is suggesting some consenting grab ass? Call your mission president or whoever. No need for violence. This shouldn't be rocket science.

I don't think that is the issue.

I think this issue for people like me who are active, believing members is what we do with a person we believe to be a prophet who has made statements that are both very offensive and not in line with current doctrinal/policy positions of the other prophets and the church as a whole At least as I see it. To some degree, it has to bring the notion of a prophet and revelation under some scrutiny, and I freely admit it is a personal struggle for which I don't yet have a satisfactory answer.


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[Portland Ute]

Anybody who gives my kid a copy of that talk is going to get floored by me.

In seriousness, I told my wife about this last night. She was unaware of that talk and was quite taken aback. I was raised on this sort of ethos and very much would have decked my companion if he would have tried to make a pass at me at the time. Nobody did, so good news there.

Look, if your companion is actually try to rape or abuse you forcefully punch away. I don't think anybody has an issue with that. But if your companion is suggesting some consenting grab ass? Call your mission president or whoever. No need for violence. This shouldn't be rocket science.

I don't think that is the issue.

I think this issue for people like me who are active, believing members is what we do with a person we believe to be a prophet who has made statements that are both very offensive and not in line with current doctrinal/policy positions of the other prophets and the church as a whole At least as I see it. To some degree, it has to bring the notion of a prophet and revelation under some scrutiny, and I freely admit it is a personal struggle for which I don't yet have a satisfactory answer.


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I agree with all of this. I wasn't suggesting that someone should be punched for making a pass.

I was saying that if someone, anyone made a pass and then sexually assaulted you that you would be free to use violence to protect yourself.

I do not condone what Packer said which was, "GOod....someone needed to beat that dude."

[woot]

In my mission a very common meme was "bag o' rocks!" referring to the proper response to a gay companion. I probably said it a few times myself.

[TheBYUGuy]

By the way, this is not some obscure talk given at a zone conference in Peru. This is the famous "To Young Men Only" talk given in a priesthood session of GC that was made into a pamphlet and widely distributed for years. My mother gave me a copy when I was in high school.

This pamphlet/talk is also the source of the infamous "little factory" lecture. When I was in a YM calling a few years ago, I was given some of these pamphlets by the stake presidency and instructed that I was to give them to the YM under my watch. After I read it, there was no way I could give it to them.

[RC Vikings]

This pamphlet/talk is also the source of the infamous "little factory" lecture. When I was in a YM calling a few years ago, I was given some of these pamphlets by the stake presidency and instructed that I was to give them to the YM under my watch. After I read it, there was no way I could give it to them.

I was a teenager sitting in Priesthood when this talk was given. I don't remember the gay part of the talk mainly because I was worried about how much I was going to have to pay the factory workers for working overtime.

[Pheidippides]

This pamphlet/talk is also the source of the infamous "little factory" lecture. When I was in a YM calling a few years ago, I was given some of these pamphlets by the stake presidency and instructed that I was to give them to the YM under my watch. After I read it, there was no way I could give it to them.

That stake presidency was especially concerned with masturbation among YM at the time.


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[Indy Coug]

Grassroots show of support for BKP

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700072794/Reaction-for-Mormon-Apostle-Boyd-K-Packer-goes-viral-Facebook-pages-offer-mostly-support.html

[Jeff Lebowski]

Grassroots show of support for BKP

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...y-support.html

Yeah, I have seen quite a few references to that on Facebook. Kind of turns your stomach once you start reading through the comments however.

[scottie]

Yeah, I have seen quite a few references to that on Facebook. Kind of turns your stomach once you start reading through the comments however.

You mean comments like this from RoadBiker in Orem, UT?

When I was young, I had a tendency to steal a piece of candy from a store. There have been many times since that I have felt those inclinations but have not acted on them. Does that mean I'm a thief? That I cannot change. Overcome. Of course not. Everyone has tendencies of various kinds. That doesn't mean you can't overcome and not act on them. Sooner or later, unless you entertain, the desire goes away and life goes on.
I'm so grateful God speaks to Prophets today and that they have the courage and testimony to speak the word of God. Thanks you President Packer. We support you 100%.

There's a pretty good chance that is someone trolling, but who knows.

[All-American]

You mean comments like this from RoadBiker in Orem, UT?

There's a pretty good chance that is someone trolling, but who knows.

Yeah, he's not trolling.

[OrangeUte]

i am troubled by this quote in the Packer talk...

"History demonstrates over and over again that moral standards cannot be changed by battle and cannot be changed by ballot."

If this is so, then why did the church get involved in Prop 8 and the fight against gay marriage. Why not just preach to your members your standards and let them govern themselves?

The heavy-handedness of this drives me nuts.

[OrangeUte]

let me finish my thought... the next paragraph, BKP says "If we do not protect and foster the family, civilization and our liberties must needs perish." Seems to me he is talking about protecting the families within our church since "moral standards cannot be changed...by ballot." but, it's clear that here the church is inserting itself into the debate and saying to its members, if you're not with us, then you aren't with God. Very nice, especially from a church that itself is starting to acknoweldge that this issue isn't black and white - i.e. that people may be born this way, but it's just not certain.

[OrangeUte]

with all of the talk about "pornography" in the talk, i keep expecting BKP/the Church to come out and say that Boyd was really talking about pornography rather than homosexuality. instead, the church has edited the talk a bit and says that it's not unusual for the church/apostles to do so...

But, the changes really don't do much.

Still, the content of the speach is that a gay or lesbian person is dirty like one addicted to pornography and is in a sort of spiritual prison from sin and needing to use repentance to get out of that prison. this changes nothing and is still a very uncaring and unsympathetic approach to the issue.

i know that the Q12 and FP meet about the content of the speeches beforehand. i simply cannot believe that there is no discussion of the content before broadcasting to 12 million members throughout the world. GC is a major broadcast, so to expect me to believe that BKP just gave the talk without much oversight is insulting and another attempt by the church to get me to turn off my brain and believe how they want me to be.

[Portland Ute]

I wish I hadn't read anything on that Facebook page. It's as bad as reading the comment sections at the SL Trib or Dnews.

So much arrogance, hate and ridicule from BOTH sides of the issue.

[Portland Ute]

with all of the talk about "pornography" in the talk, i keep expecting BKP/the Church to come out and say that Boyd was really talking about pornography rather than homosexuality. instead, the church has edited the talk a bit and says that it's not unusual for the church/apostles to do so...

But, the changes really don't do much.

Still, the content of the speach is that a gay or lesbian person is dirty like one addicted to pornography and is in a sort of spiritual prison from sin and needing to use repentance to get out of that prison. this changes nothing and is still a very uncaring and unsympathetic approach to the issue.

i know that the Q12 and FP meet about the content of the speeches beforehand. i simply cannot believe that there is no discussion of the content before broadcasting to 12 million members throughout the world. GC is a major broadcast, so to expect me to believe that BKP just gave the talk without much oversight is insulting and another attempt by the church to get me to turn off my brain and believe how they want me to be.

If it's any consolation, there is no way that 12 million people watched this or will watch this.

I'm guessing it's more like 3-4 million.