Raising teenagers in the Church

[ERCougar]

I need some advice...
Some of you know that my 15 yr old niece is living with us. There are obviously some challenges with that, but the ones that I'm having the hardest time with are church-related. I don't have the most orthodox ideas about some things and I think she can sense that as I tend to be somewhat outspoken. The problem that arises is that like many 15 yr olds, she doesn't care so much about the intellectual content of the church as she does about what she can and can't do. So when she got asked to Homecoming, we told her no (she barely turned 15), and after turning to the obvious melodramatic "I'm the ONLY one who can't go to Homecoming" (in rural southern Utah...right...), she then turned to the "what if I don't buy into all of the Church stuff?" That was an easier one to deal with because I think the counsel to not date before you're 16 is a really good one for completely non-religious reason. Even with this, however, I still struggle a little with telling her no, given the fact that if she wants to hook up with a guy, she's going to do it, regardless of dating rules.
Seminary's presented a little larger challenge. I think on the whole that Seminary is a good thing. I like that we include moral/religious education into our educational system. I think there are some good role models there. I like that we ask kids to really get to know their religion so they can make educated decisions as adults.
I have to shorten this, because I have to get going to church, but my basic problem is that I'm not always a fan of everything taught at Seminary,which tends to be an even more conservative version of Sunday School. Overall, I think the Church presents a pretty good program for teenagers, and I don't want my personal differences with the doctrines to be used as an excuse to reject the constraints the Church puts on teens, many of which I would consider important to developing a good moral sense. Maybe it just weakens teens to see role models doubting? For Fowler fans, maybe it's a good thing to develop a strong Stage III faith as a teen, and worry about the subsequent struggles later?

Sorry if that didn't make any sense. I've got to get the kids ready for Church and I'll come back and clarify. I'd love to hear initial thoughts in the meantime.

[RobinFinderson]

My Elders' Q president in New Haven was one of the most thoughtful Mormons I have ever known. He also happened to be a philosophy doctoral student at Yale, and his wife, though not a Yale student, was his equal in generosity and intelligence. We still count this couple as dear friends. Anyhow, they had a son who was a few years older than Little Robin, which is to say that the son was still a child, maybe ten years old. When the son began having a crisis of faith, they asked him what he would like to do about it. He told them that he didn't feel comfortable going to church. The parents didn't feel comfortable leaving the young boy at home alone, so they began taking turns skipping church to be with their inactive ten-year-old son (she was the Relief Society President). The bishop of the ward, a tenured Yale geneticist, supported them in this choice 100%. After several months of this, the child decided that he wanted to begin attending church again. The experience allowed the child to meaningfully take ownership of his faith and testimony. The parents, both strong in their own personal testimonies, exercised faith that if they were to meaningfully respect the child's autonomy, that God would allow the right course of action to happen for the child.

Anyhow, though this story is about a ten-year-old, I think that the way the parents handled the situation could just as easily apply to a teenager. The idea that if a person is taught 'correct principles,' is one that takes a small leap of faith to actually exercise. And whether we are discussing church issues, or the larger struggles of modern youth, I think it takes a similar kind of faith to find ways to meaningfully allow young people to exercise their personhood while still fulfilling our responsibility to protect them from dangers of which they may be unaware. I think that too often most guardians fault on the side of restricting youth too much, which inadvertently passes along some dictatorial tendencies.

[Levin]

Count me among the following crowd: so long as you live in my house, you'll live by my rules.

The Yale parents' decision to let the 10-year old dictate their churchgoing has a happy ending. But I think it's nuts. I wonder if what they really taught the child is that you stop going to church during those times you are struggling with your testimony and don't feel comfortable there. The better lesson, IMO, would have been to continue to go to church through the crisis in faith.

[smokymountainrain]

Count me among the following crowd: so long as you live in my house, you'll live by my rules.

The Yale parents' decision to let the 10-year old dictate their churchgoing has a happy ending. But I think it's nuts. I wonder if what they really taught the child is that you stop going to church during those times you are struggling with your testimony and don't feel comfortable there. The better lesson, IMO, would have been to continue to go to church through the crisis in faith.

hmmm....I liked how the Yale parents handled the situation, but that might only be due to the happy ending. Ultimately, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer in those situations and the parents or Aunt/Uncle in ER's case, simply have to do what they feel right about at that time.

[Sullyute]

Some of you know that my 15 yr old niece is living with us.

I don't have any teenagers yet, so I don't have any personal advice. I do want to give you kudos for having the charity to take your niece into your home. That is never an easy thing and is genarally a big sacrifice.

My wife and I were talking about when to let our kids make a choice about attending church. She said that she though sixteen would be a good age. Her idea was that Sundays are a day to worship God so she would let them choose where they want to worship but they they had to worship somewhere on the Sabath. Obviously, the theory works great until you have to put it into practice so I will let you know in about ten years.

I also agree on the no dating before 16. I think that this is just wise advice in general.

[ERCougar]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I can't quite go so far as the Yale strategy, although I can see how it would work with certain kids. There are some unique parts of the story that I think would make that an unwise move for her with regards to dating, but that's for another thread. One lesson I learned from my MIL that we've tried to incorporate with out kids is "Try to say 'No' as infrequently as possible." It's funny advice coming from my MIL, because she's very conservative, but she really did follow this in raising her children. Her idea was that she wanted to teach her kids how to make decisions for themselves and I think it's wise, in general. The trick is figuring out when saying "No" is really helping them to make a decision they're not really equipped/mature enough to make on their own. That line is probably different for every kid.

My difficulty is more with dealing with Church doctrines I don't agree with. For example, she came home the other day telling me that her seminary had told the class that it was "either us or the Catholics" (they were discussing authority). Well, I'm not crazy about the idea of Priesthood authority--in fact, it's probably my biggest area of disagreement with Church doctrine (or at the root of a lot of my disagreements). I don't really have a problem with them teaching the idea of authority, and I honestly don't really have a problem with the Seminary teacher illustrating it that way. But I don't like the doctrine, and I actually think that an emphasis on it to be counterproductive (in a lot of ways). So how do I let her know that I don't really agree with the idea, but that there is plenty that her seminary teacher will teach her that I do agree with? Or should I just my tongue over the whole thing and let her ask the question (if she ever does)?

I guess the obvious answer is to bite my tongue on it. But one of the problems I have with Seminary is that it creates a group of members that are sure that theirs is the only correct way. I want my kids to be respectful of other faiths and ways and cultures and whatnot and realize that they could learn a lot from others. But maybe that's forcing a later life issue on too young of an age. Maybe it's helpful to be sure of yourself and your religion as a teenager--let your doubts and questions come later.

I'm still rambling because I'm still trying to figure out my question, I guess. I'll think a little more on it. Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

[Shaka]

I respect you deeply for taking on this challenge. My only comment is that I think if a kid is old enough to go to high school they ought to be able to do the high school activities such as going to homecoming. I always thought sixteen was sort of a guide that coincided with starting high school rather than a rule by itself. Maybe you let her go with the stipulation that she can't date for anything other than school activities and that if she is asked she must go with a group.

[RobinFinderson]

As far as the doctrinal things, maybe you should just tell her openly how you feel about things. I think that part of taking ownership of one's own testimony means shaking the reluctance one might feel in sharing it with others. If you have a testimony that works for you personally, just share it, and let her know that there are all kinds of Mormons with various beliefs that diverge from the mainstream. Tell her that this is cool, and that she may find her own beliefs diverging a bit from what she is taught in seminary, and that you would hope that she would feel comfortable discussing that with you, even if she doesn't feel comfortable discussing it in seminary. One thing this approach will do is to make seminary a much more interactive experience. Instead of seeing it as a class in 'what I believe,' each lesson becomes a provocation in which she asks herself, "do I really believe that?" The things that she decides to make her own will be much more meaningful to her. Sharing your 'different' testimony with her is really an invitation to think about the whole concept of testimony in a very powerful and meaningful way. I think that for a lot of young Mormons it would be a total paradigm shift... a good one.

[Solon]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I can't quite go so far as the Yale strategy, although I can see how it would work with certain kids. There are some unique parts of the story that I think would make that an unwise move for her with regards to dating, but that's for another thread. One lesson I learned from my MIL that we've tried to incorporate with out kids is "Try to say 'No' as infrequently as possible." It's funny advice coming from my MIL, because she's very conservative, but she really did follow this in raising her children. Her idea was that she wanted to teach her kids how to make decisions for themselves and I think it's wise, in general. The trick is figuring out when saying "No" is really helping them to make a decision they're not really equipped/mature enough to make on their own. That line is probably different for every kid.

My difficulty is more with dealing with Church doctrines I don't agree with. For example, she came home the other day telling me that her seminary had told the class that it was "either us or the Catholics" (they were discussing authority). Well, I'm not crazy about the idea of Priesthood authority--in fact, it's probably my biggest area of disagreement with Church doctrine (or at the root of a lot of my disagreements). I don't really have a problem with them teaching the idea of authority, and I honestly don't really have a problem with the Seminary teacher illustrating it that way. But I don't like the doctrine, and I actually think that an emphasis on it to be counterproductive (in a lot of ways). So how do I let her know that I don't really agree with the idea, but that there is plenty that her seminary teacher will teach her that I do agree with? Or should I just my tongue over the whole thing and let her ask the question (if she ever does)?

I guess the obvious answer is to bite my tongue on it. But one of the problems I have with Seminary is that it creates a group of members that are sure that theirs is the only correct way. I want my kids to be respectful of other faiths and ways and cultures and whatnot and realize that they could learn a lot from others. But maybe that's forcing a later life issue on too young of an age. Maybe it's helpful to be sure of yourself and your religion as a teenager--let your doubts and questions come later.

I'm still rambling because I'm still trying to figure out my question, I guess. I'll think a little more on it. Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

The fact you're thinking about how to handle the situation places you miles ahead of a lot of parents & guardians. Worst-case-scenario, in my opinion, is that your niece comes away with the insight that there are lots of different kinds of Mormons, that there is plenty of wiggle room on some of these concepts and principles.

I don't know all of the details, but the way I'm reading Post #1 leads me to believe that you could get away with, "we're saying 'no' to the Homecoming thing, not because it's "doctrine" or the church forces us to do it, but because it's good advice."

Anyways, as I read this back I realize that this sounds unclear and idiotic. We'll talk.

[The_Tick]

My philosophy is to not throw a grenade into my kids beliefs. If my daughters ask a question and ask me how I feel about it then I tell them. If not...then they start to form their testimony on their own.

I believe in the accountability of things. I don't want to do anything that is going to ruin/destroy my child's testimony. If I do, then I am going to be held accountable for that.

We have the rule at our house...if you live here you go. You don't have to believe and you don't have to participate, but you are going.

[Rosebud]

I guess the obvious answer is to bite my tongue on it.

fwiw, I wouldn't bite my tongue... I'd seize the opportunity. I talk to my teens about that kind of stuff all the time. I actually intentionally fight black and white thinking just 'cause, IMO, teens do better when they learn to accept and deal with the truth that life is gray.

Plus, I think teens are more than aware of the gray in their own lives. The lucky ones, IMO, have adults who will talk to them about it. Openly discussing that kind of wisdom frees them up to feel better about their own gray selves. Otherwise, they're left comparing their own blatant imperfections to the false idealism of the clean black and white world adults try to sell.

So... no, I don't think it's helpful to be sure of yourself as a teenager. I think that's an impossibility that adults thinking about parenting discuss. My opinion is that it's more helpful for them to be sure that it's okay with you that they're not sure..... mainly 'cause the truth is that you're not sure and you seem to be doing okay. You being less than ideal allows them to be less than ideal which in turn allows them to strive to be better than they are now because they don't have to be "white" to succeed. I guess that's kind of counterintuitive?? It seems to work, though.

An honest discussion about your real thoughts and feelings might actually do more to motivate her to be "good" than any of the standard answers would.

_____

Note: I just read the above to my teenage daughter and she said, "I totally agree." For what it's worth..... (Maybe she just likes me.)

[All-American]

I can only remember one time growing up when I tried to skip church. My dad came home and brought me back. It was when I was in primary, so it may not be very useful here, but oh well.

Our family's mantra on church attendance and participation was "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Church was one of our family responsibilities, as much as doing the chores, practicing the piano, or whatever else. It was just something we were expected to do.

Another reason my story might not be terribly relevant: the problem was not that I had any doubts as to the claims of the church. I just didn't want to go. The lesson I needed was one on fulfilling my duties, and I got it. That may not be what is needed here.

[pellegrino]

Though my oldest is only in kindergarten, I've thought about this a lot. Perhaps it's because my wife and I differ somewhat in our beliefs about the church. My daughter is full of questions. She already asks how it is that God can hear our prayers if he's "way way far away in heaven." Right now the honest answers are fine. She's ok with an "I don't know, but I believe that somehow he hears us." The other night she asked me if God had a face full of ears and that was how he heard us. I can only imagine the questions she'll ask as she becomes more rational and goes through seminary.

Fortunately, my wife and I do talk about these things. We have agreed that it's ok to not present a united front in this area. We have differing reasons for believing what we do and we both feel that they are valid in their own right. We agree that what you do and how you conduct your life is more important that what you profess to believe. I think when it comes down to it, specific doctrines are less important to me. I'm much more interested in how gospel principles and doctrines affect your day to day life and your relationships with others. I view the church as a great medium to serve others and that's what I'll emphasize to my children.

[ERCougar]

I respect you deeply for taking on this challenge. My only comment is that I think if a kid is old enough to go to high school they ought to be able to do the high school activities such as going to homecoming. I always thought sixteen was sort of a guide that coincided with starting high school rather than a rule by itself. Maybe you let her go with the stipulation that she can't date for anything other than school activities and that if she is asked she must go with a group.

I'd agree to let her go if it really were a group thing (and this is the tack she used to try to convince us). We let her go to other dances all the time. But really, it's not what happens. What happens is that kids pair off for the night, don't dance with anyone else, and it's far closer to a "date" than an "activity" (or even a dance). I don't think that's a good idea. Kids should learn to enjoy each other non-romantically for as long as possible. I get so tired of Disney Channel shows targeted at my 6 yr old talking about boyfriends and dating. Way too early. My 6 yr old asked my niece the other day why she didn't have a boyfriend and if she ever wanted to get married. Feminists--Disney Channel is your enemy.

The fortunate thing is that she's an early birthday, so really, most of her other Freshman friends aren't going. Next year, she'll be able to.

As far as the doctrinal things, maybe you should just tell her openly how you feel about things. I think that part of taking ownership of one's own testimony means shaking the reluctance one might feel in sharing it with others. If you have a testimony that works for you personally, just share it, and let her know that there are all kinds of Mormons with various beliefs that diverge from the mainstream. Tell her that this is cool, and that she may find her own beliefs diverging a bit from what she is taught in seminary, and that you would hope that she would feel comfortable discussing that with you, even if she doesn't feel comfortable discussing it in seminary. One thing this approach will do is to make seminary a much more interactive experience. Instead of seeing it as a class in 'what I believe,' each lesson becomes a provocation in which she asks herself, "do I really believe that?" The things that she decides to make her own will be much more meaningful to her. Sharing your 'different' testimony with her is really an invitation to think about the whole concept of testimony in a very powerful and meaningful way. I think that for a lot of young Mormons it would be a total paradigm shift... a good one.

I like this approach and reasoning. It'd be way more comforting, however, if it weren't coming from someone who's going to hell.

The fact you're thinking about how to handle the situation places you miles ahead of a lot of parents & guardians. Worst-case-scenario, in my opinion, is that your niece comes away with the insight that there are lots of different kinds of Mormons, that there is plenty of wiggle room on some of these concepts and principles.

I don't know all of the details, but the way I'm reading Post #1 leads me to believe that you could get away with, "we're saying 'no' to the Homecoming thing, not because it's "doctrine" or the church forces us to do it, but because it's good advice."

Anyways, as I read this back I realize that this sounds unclear and idiotic. We'll talk.

You actually spurred some of this thinking when Lindsay suggested you be a primary teacher. We'll talk more...

My philosophy is to not throw a grenade into my kids beliefs. If my daughters ask a question and ask me how I feel about it then I tell them. If not...then they start to form their testimony on their own.

I believe in the accountability of things. I don't want to do anything that is going to ruin/destroy my child's testimony. If I do, then I am going to be held accountable for that.

We have the rule at our house...if you live here you go. You don't have to believe and you don't have to participate, but you are going.

This is exactly my worry. I don't want to let my doubts poison someone else's faith. The effect of doubt on faith is a really interesting subject to me. Jesus said, "Doubt not, but be believing" and I'm not sure how to interpret this injunction. Is it a commandment? If so, then it seems that we should be careful about "throwing a grenade" into someone's beliefs.

fwiw, I wouldn't bite my tongue... I'd seize the opportunity. I talk to my teens about that kind of stuff all the time. I actually intentionally fight black and white thinking just 'cause, IMO, teens do better when they learn to accept and deal with the truth that life is gray.

Plus, I think teens are more than aware of the gray in their own lives. The lucky ones, IMO, have adults who will talk to them about it. Openly discussing that kind of wisdom frees them up to feel better about their own gray selves. Otherwise, they're left comparing their own blatant imperfections to the false idealism of the clean black and white world adults try to sell.

So... no, I don't think it's helpful to be sure of yourself as a teenager. I think that's an impossibility that adults thinking about parenting discuss. My opinion is that it's more helpful for them to be sure that it's okay with you that they're not sure..... mainly 'cause the truth is that you're not sure and you seem to be doing okay. You being less than ideal allows them to be less than ideal which in turn allows them to strive to be better than they are now because they don't have to be "white" to succeed. I guess that's kind of counterintuitive?? It seems to work, though.

An honest discussion about your real thoughts and feelings might actually do more to motivate her to be "good" than any of the standard answers would.

_____

Note: I just read the above to my teenage daughter and she said, "I totally agree." For what it's worth..... (Maybe she just likes me.)

How inspiring is "gray" though? Sometimes, we need myth to inspire us to better things. Missionaries need to believe that they were specifically called by God to go to their chosen area (and not just some output of a computer algorithm) to deal with the stuff they have to. Etc, etc.

I can only remember one time growing up when I tried to skip church. My dad came home and brought me back. It was when I was in primary, so it may not be very useful here, but oh well.

Our family's mantra on church attendance and participation was "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Church was one of our family responsibilities, as much as doing the chores, practicing the piano, or whatever else. It was just something we were expected to do.

Another reason my story might not be terribly relevant: the problem was not that I had any doubts as to the claims of the church. I just didn't want to go. The lesson I needed was one on fulfilling my duties, and I got it. That may not be what is needed here.

One of the things that triggered my thinking was a discussion we had about Seminary. She said that she didn't want to take Seminary because one of the requirements was that she read through the scriptures (D&C this year). This is when her "I just don't buy it all" comment came up. When we discussed it further, she doesn't really even know what she buys or not, because she's never really thought seriously about it. All she knows is that it's boring to read the scriptures. What bugged me about this is that she's using our other discussions on the Church and my questions to not want to make an effort--which is what made me wonder if I should be sharing these things with her in the first place. I told her that I'd be happy to listen to any real objections she has to Seminary, but "not wanting to read" is about as valid an objection as not wanting to learn math would be to getting out of taking math. There is some shirking going on here, in the name of "doubt".

[Shaka]

I'm not sure why I assumed she was a sophomore. I agree, freshman probably shouldn't be going to the dances. If she was a fifteen year old sophomore that would be a different thing altogether.