The Daily Universe -- Defending Proposition 8

[The_Tick]

I didn't say anything about an apology. It's about learning to love people more in the future.

I am pretty sure they do love them. They are just trying to deny their happiness is all.

Religion has been doing that for 2000 years.

[LA Ute]

But now you have to answer my riddle. If the Prophet had come out in opposition to Prop 8 would you, based on some or all of the reasons articled in the campaign would you have concluded that he was wrong?

I now realize I did not answer this question the first time. (I was in a hurry. So sue me.)

Your hypo is not well-constructed because it is so implausible. (I'm serious.) So I'll modify it for you. If President Monson and the rest of the FP had said, "The Church believes marriage is between a man and a woman and we counsel against same-sex marriage, but we respect the legal process and think the matter of whom to marry should be left to individual choice," I would have accepted that guidance but may still have voted for Prop 8. I probably would have voted against it - I am not sure.

As for your disrespectful comment about making me think, you're buying lunch next time, buddy, and it will be someplace really pricey.

[Indy Coug]

The church as an institution MIGHT be guilty of ostracism, it MIGHT be guilty of not finding a suitably Christlike happy medium between affirming the doctrine of eternal marriage, the law of chastity while sufficiently embracing people with same-sex attraction, it MIGHT be guilty of not more effectively getting the message of out to the rank-and-file membership, but it is NOT guilty of causing people to commit suicide.

Frankly, when people go down this path of conveniently blaming a faceless institution, the over-reaching accusations undermine efforts to bridge the gaps that exist. As a member of the church, I don't take kindly to having some very broad finger pointing at the church, and by extension, at me; trying to lay the outcome of others' unfortunate individual life-and-decisions at my doorstep.

The circumstances that lead to one's determination to commit suicide are infinitely more complex than suffering from a lack of institutional acceptance. Else, what becomes of ethnic minorities, the handicapped and any other subset of humanity that faces blind prejudices and institutional barriers?

Church membership is optional, and I don't say that flippantly. There are all sorts of people on this site that have left the church for far, far less. That doesn't dismissively imply that separation from one's faith and the faith of their friends of family is a trivial or not a traumatic event. Regardless, it is not grounds for suicide and it certainly isn't grounds for outsourcing the blame.

[TripletDaddy]

The church as an institution MIGHT be guilty of ostracism, it MIGHT be guilty of not finding a suitably Christlike happy medium between affirming the doctrine of eternal marriage, the law of chastity while sufficiently embracing people with same-sex attraction, it MIGHT be guilty of not more effectively getting the message of out to the rank-and-file membership, but it is NOT guilty of causing people to commit suicide.

Frankly, when people go down this path of conveniently blaming a faceless institution, the over-reaching accusations undermine efforts to bridge the gaps that exist. As a member of the church, I don't take kindly to having some very broad finger pointing at the church, and by extension, at me; trying to lay the outcome of others' unfortunate individual life-and-decisions at my doorstep.

The circumstances that lead to one's determination to commit suicide are infinitely more complex than suffering from a lack of institutional acceptance. Else, what becomes of ethnic minorities, the handicapped and any other subset of humanity that faces blind prejudices and institutional barriers?

Church membership is optional, and I don't say that flippantly. There are all sorts of people on this site that have left the church for far, far less. That doesn't dismissively imply that separation from one's faith and the faith of their friends of family is a trivial or not a traumatic event. Regardless, it is not grounds for suicide and it certainly isn't grounds for outsourcing the blame.

Indy, you are truly your brother's keeper. heart-warming stuff.

[Indy Coug]

Indy, you are truly your brother's keeper. heart-warming stuff.

Thanks for yet another worthwhile response.

[TripletDaddy]

Thanks for yet another worthwhile response.

I think it was just in line with what your diatribe merited. Check that....it MIGHT be what your diatribe merited.

[UtahDan]

The church as an institution MIGHT be guilty of ostracism, it MIGHT be guilty of not finding a suitably Christlike happy medium between affirming the doctrine of eternal marriage, the law of chastity while sufficiently embracing people with same-sex attraction, it MIGHT be guilty of not more effectively getting the message of out to the rank-and-file membership, but it is NOT guilty of causing people to commit suicide.

Frankly, when people go down this path of conveniently blaming a faceless institution, the over-reaching accusations undermine efforts to bridge the gaps that exist. As a member of the church, I don't take kindly to having some very broad finger pointing at the church, and by extension, at me; trying to lay the outcome of others' unfortunate individual life-and-decisions at my doorstep.

The circumstances that lead to one's determination to commit suicide are infinitely more complex than suffering from a lack of institutional acceptance. Else, what becomes of ethnic minorities, the handicapped and any other subset of humanity that faces blind prejudices and institutional barriers?

Church membership is optional, and I don't say that flippantly. There are all sorts of people on this site that have left the church for far, far less. That doesn't dismissively imply that separation from one's faith and the faith of their friends of family is a trivial or not a traumatic event. Regardless, it is not grounds for suicide and it certainly isn't grounds for outsourcing the blame.

These are hard issues to talk about because I think there is naturally a lot of defensiveness that comes out. I thought about this issue much the same as you are articulating it here. The thing that really turned it around for me was listening to some of the stories of people who have experienced being gay and LDS and really getting my heart strings tugged by what an awful and hopeless situation they find themselves in amongst people who for the most part view them as the enemy. You can subtract prop 8, gay marriage etc totally from the equation and still ask whether we as members can behave in a more Christ-like way toward our brothers and sisters.

The thing that bothers me is not the idea that the institutional church is killing anyone, but that we as members and I individually may be contributing to an environment where some gay fourteen year old teacher in my ward is learning to hate himself. My concern is aimed squarely at myself and others at the ward level. If you look at the link to Carol Ann Pearson's recounting of the Elder Jensen meeting, she says this:

There was never a statement suggesting that Elder Jensen felt the Church’s support of
Proposition 8 was an error or that he was apologizing for that event. He said, “I have
heard the calls for change in our church’s policy on this subject. I have read Carol Lynn
Pearson’s books and wept as I read them. I don’t think the evolution of our policies will
go as far as many would like. Rather I think the evolution will be one of better
understanding. I believe our concept of marriage is part of the bedrock of our doctrine
and will not change. I believe our policy will continue to be that gay members of the
Church must remain celibate. However, I want you to know that as a result of being with
you this morning, my aversion to homophobia has grown. I know that many very good
people have been deeply hurt, and I know that the Lord expects better of us.”

[SoCalCoug]

People are always looking for a scapegoat.

People are also always looking to avoid responsibility. Denying that our actions and attitudes toward someone can affect them so deeply emotionally that it can contribute to the decision to take their own life, in my opinion, is trying to avoid responsibility for how we treat others.

[Indy Coug]

These are hard issues to talk about because I think there is naturally a lot of defensiveness that comes out. I thought about this issue much the same as you are articulating it here. The thing that really turned it around for me was listening to some of the stories of people who have experienced being gay and LDS and really getting my heart strings tugged by what an awful and hopeless situation they find themselves in amongst people who for the most part view them as the enemy. You can subtract prop 8, gay marriage etc totally from the equation and still ask whether we as members can behave in a more Christ-like way toward our brothers and sisters.

The thing that bothers me is not the idea that the institutional church is killing anyone, but that we as members and I individually may be contributing to an environment where some gay fourteen year old teacher in my ward is learning to hate himself. My concern is aimed squarely at myself and others at the ward level. If you look at the link to Carol Ann Pearson's recounting of the Elder Jensen meeting, she says this:

Thanks, that was a much better response than DDD's.

[SoCalCoug]

Regardless, it is not grounds for suicide and it certainly isn't grounds for outsourcing the blame.

You talk of "blame" as if it's a single, indivisible entity. It is possible for multiple people/institutions to have some blame for an occurrence. If some here are trying to place blame on the church or on church-related people, I doubt it's an entire shift in blame from the person committing suicide.

[UtahDan]

I now realize I did not answer this question the first time. (I was in a hurry. So sue me.)

Your hypo is not well-constructed because it is so implausible. (I'm serious.) So I'll modify it for you. If President Monson and the rest of the FP had said, "The Church believes marriage is between a man and a woman and we counsel against same-sex marriage, but we respect the legal process and think the matter of whom to marry should be left to individual choice," I would have accepted that guidance but may still have voted for Prop 8. I probably would have voted against it - I am not sure.

As for your disrespectful comment about making me think, you're buying lunch next time, buddy, and it will be someplace really pricey.

I don't want to sue you. There are only two ways that plays out: me beating up on you or you hiring SU and him beating up on me. Neither sounds very fun.

I do appreciate the bolded sentence. I guess that is my point. I think that the deciding factor for most people was what the brethren were saying. That is not to say there are no other reasons that one can articulate, only that (I believe) for many people those reasons alone would not have been enough absent the brethren weighing in. For some they would have been, but you can stay seating in the intellectually honest part of the CUF classroom based on this answer. We are glad to have you!

[The_Tick]

People are also always looking to avoid responsibility. Denying that our actions and attitudes toward someone can affect them so deeply emotionally that it can contribute to the decision to take their own life, in my opinion, is trying to avoid responsibility for how we treat others.

I grew up and was picked on my whole life. I was the fat kid. I was the butt of every joke. It is okay though...because I am fat right? The youth of my Ward did it. The Leaders in my ward allowed it and sometimes participated. None of them should have, but oh well.

If I had chosen to kill myself, it would have been because I was weak and not willing to grow. I took what people said and used it to turn me into the type of person that I am today.

I hear what you are saying, but we aren't going to agree. In the end it is solely on the person taking their own life. There is always help available if someone spends enough time looking for it.

[Non Sequitur]

As a member of the church, I don't take kindly to having some very broad finger pointing at the church, and by extension, at me; trying to lay the outcome of others' unfortunate individual life-and-decisions at my doorstep.

Poor you.

You tell a kid for 20 years that the only path to happiness is XYZ, and then you tell them that XYZ is not an option. And then you take offense that people point fingers at you for being complicit in fucking with their minds for 20 years. You are so clueless.

[SoCalCoug]

I grew up and was picked on my whole life. I was the fat kid. I was the butt of every joke. It is okay though...because I am fat right? The youth of my Ward did it. The Leaders in my ward allowed it and sometimes participated. None of them should have, but oh well.

If I had chosen to kill myself, it would have been because I was weak and not willing to grow. I took what people said and used it to turn me into the type of person that I am today.

I hear what you are saying, but we aren't going to agree. In the end it is solely on the person taking their own life. There is always help available if someone spends enough time looking for it.

Do you believe those kids and leaders were wrong for treating you like they did? Do they share any blame for how the abuse made you feel?

Because that's what I'm referring to. Not every gay LDS member is strong and willing to grow. And not every gay LDS member kills himself. But some are, and some do. And if people treat them in an unChristlike manner, and it contributes to their self-image becoming so poor that they feel like dying is a better alternative to living, then I think there is some blame to be laid on them.

[woot]

I grew up and was picked on my whole life. I was the fat kid. I was the butt of every joke. It is okay though...because I am fat right? The youth of my Ward did it. The Leaders in my ward allowed it and sometimes participated. None of them should have, but oh well.

If I had chosen to kill myself, it would have been because I was weak and not willing to grow. I took what people said and used it to turn me into the type of person that I am today.

I hear what you are saying, but we aren't going to agree. In the end it is solely on the person taking their own life. There is always help available if someone spends enough time looking for it.

This is a terrible analogy. The problem isn't individual members of the church making homosexuals the butt of jokes; the problem is that the church explicitly teaches that homosexuality is an unnatural abomination, and that homosexuals must therefore repress their sexual urges for life or be damned. Furthermore, no matter what they do short of somehow finding someone of the opposite sex to marry (either through lying to their potential spouse about their orientation, or else finding someone who is just that desperate to be married, who would certainly be a catch), they can never reach the highest degree of glory and enjoy "eternal progression". In either scenario, they are doomed to misery in this life with no hope of reprieve and have very little chance of exaltation in the next.

I don't mean to discount the hatred and prejudice of any individual members, as it seems they have certainly made things even worse, but even without any of that, the church has done plenty to destroy the lives of Mormon homosexuals.

The racist history of the church pales in comparison to its homophobic present. There is simply no hope that the church will be able to update its doctrine on this matter as it so often has on other matters. This doctrine is way too foundational. Imagine how the church would be viewed today if it still practiced polygamy and was still officially racist. That's how the church will be viewed in a few decades because of its homophobia. It may end up even being its downfall.