Immigration & Prop 8 from an Apostle

[The_Tick]

The church does wrong, just not as often as you appear to think -- and this thread is one example of that.

I am glad to meet the final arbiter on what is right and wrong for the Church.

You are busy.

I am sure that you already know this...with your magic 8-ball and all...but I think the Church does more right than wrong.

I just think it isn't fair to pick on the gays and give the illegals a pass. After all...neither of them had a choice right?

[Indy Coug]

I just can't wrap my mind around some folks that think the Church can/does no wrong.

And this is why I will never find myself in a position of leadership. I don't care enough.

The church does wrong, just not as often as you appear to think -- and this thread is one example of that.

[The_Tick]

So it's now the church's job to deport members?

There was an article posted on here within the last 18 months where there was an illegal missionary serving somewhere in the midwest.

The Mission President and the Church recommended that a family member go pick him up when his mission was over. The Church didn't want him to go to the airport because they knew he was undocumented and they didn't want the chance of him being deported.

That is in fact from the article.

I understand that this isn't an easy black and white issue.

I am the first to admit that the Church has it faults and twists the view so things work in their favor.

I just can't wrap my mind around some folks that think the Church can/does no wrong.

And this is why I will never find myself in a position of leadership. I don't care enough.

[The_Tick]

But is that really block and white? Does it apply to the laws of all lands? Just the US? How did that work out in Nazi Germany?

BTW, I seem to remember a story about you speeding...

You can have my temple recommend. I don't use it anyways.

[ewth8tr]

Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.

But is that really block and white? Does it apply to the laws of all lands? Just the US? How did that work out in Nazi Germany?

BTW, I seem to remember a story about you speeding...

[Jeff Lebowski]

Someone here illegally broke the law by entering without permission. Why is their agreement to be directed by the church to go somewhere else for 2 years illegal? It has nothing to do with their illegal status. I don't see the problem. The church didn't tell them to come here illegally. Thus it is neither breaking a law nor failing to sustain a law. What am I missing?

I suppose you could argue it is a crime of moral turpitude, but only if the potenitla nmissionary willfully entered illegally (as oppsed to followed his parents) and even then I am not sure I see it in the same category as blowing up mailboxes.

By golly creekster, they are criminals! Next thing you know we will be letting sinners go on missions.

[Indy Coug]

Said 19 to 21-year-old is now an adult, and the Church could call them to serve in their home country. No?

So it's now the church's job to deport members?

[creekster]

Someone here illegally broke the law by entering without permission. Why is their agreement to be directed by the church to go somewhere else for 2 years illegal? It has nothing to do with their illegal status. I don't see the problem. The church didn't tell them to come here illegally. Thus it is neither breaking a law nor failing to sustain a law. What am I missing?

I suppose you could argue it is a crime of moral turpitude, but only if the potenitla nmissionary willfully entered illegally (as oppsed to followed his parents) and even then I am not sure I see it in the same category as blowing up mailboxes.

[wuapinmon]

So how does this work?

Holding it against a 19 to 21 year old that their parents took them to the US illegally (violating the 2nd article) in order to uphold the 12th article?

Said 19 to 21-year-old is now an adult, and the Church could call them to serve in their home country. No?

[Indy Coug]

Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.

So how does this work?

Holding it against a 19 to 21 year old that their parents took them to the US illegally (violating the 2nd article) in order to uphold the 12th article?

[wally]

Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.

Interesting the current definition of sustain in Websters:

to give support or relief to
2: to supply with sustenance : nourish
3: keep up, prolong
4: to support the weight of : prop; also : to carry or withstand (a weight or pressure)
5: to buoy up <sustained by hope>
6a : to bear up under b : suffer, undergo <sustained heavy losses>
7a : to support as true, legal, or just b : to allow or admit as valid <the court sustained the motion>
8: to support by adequate proof : confirm <testimony that sustains our contention>

#3 is quite interesting in Ticks context: could "sustaining the law" simply mean to prolong the constitution until a date when it is no longer needed?

[The_Tick]

Stupid 2nd Article of Faith

Stupid 12th Article of Faith.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

But I guess there is a difference between sustaining and obeying.

So I am going to sustain the Word of Wisdom from here on out.

[wally]

Tick, I actually agree with you about calling undocumented aliens on missions. To me, that's lending an air of legitimacy to what they're doing while claiming to uphold the law of the land.

As to the Church not allowing fat people to serve, I would've left the Church over that insult. According to current charts that I saw when I was an Exec Sec, I would've been 35 pounds over the "limit."

I got pissed off in Bishopric meeting and had to excuse myself. There were guys in my mission who had done any and everything with a girl other than getting one pregnant, and they got to serve, but I caught crap because I was fat.

I thought that the fat missionary ban was for insurance/healthcare cost purposes?

Either way, I think that a wise bishop should have a "special" scale to weigh exceptionally worthy but overweight young male missionary candidates.

[The_Tick]

Does it really matter if it is federal or state law? If we believe in obeying all the laws of the land, that includes state laws as well as federal, no?

How many of this young men and woman who are here illegally and serving a mission do you think came across by themselves or as adults? I imagine that a vast majority of them were children coming in to the country with their parents. Do you honestly believe that they should be punished and not allowed to serve a mission because of the actions of their parents?

If I attempted to go on a mission right now I would be disqualified. I am 6'2" 360 lbs.

My dads side of the family averages 6'6" 300 lbs. Even if I was at the family average I still couldn't serve.

Sucks that the church is picking on my when my hands are tied by genetics.

I would be interested to have someone post the height/weight limits again for missionaries.

And I am cool for the Church not giving recommends for those that speed. I don't do it. You can ask DT and my wife. They both hate going places with me because of it.

[Indy Coug]

How many of this young men and woman who are here illegally and serving a mission do you think came across by themselves or as adults? I imagine that a vast majority of them were children coming in to the country with their parents. Do you honestly believe that they should be punished and not allowed to serve a mission because of the actions of their parents?

Stupid 2nd Article of Faith