The "Ground Zero Mosque" and Mormonism

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  • LA Ute
    Receiver of Memory
    • Nov 2008
    • 19512

    #1

    The "Ground Zero Mosque" and Mormonism

    I am going to be flamed by some here for this, but the Ground Zero Mosque doesn't bother me all that much - at least, as I understyand what is proposed. Do I really wish the Islamic group planning to build the mosque would not build it there? Do I hope they change their minds? I sure do, but I don't think any legal steps should be taken to stop them.

    Why do I wish they would not build it? Because of a pure good manners and sensitivity to a hallowed place. If the LDS Church proposed building a large and impressive temple, visible from the site of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, that would be just as offensive and insensitive.

    Bu in this case it's interesting to me that the mosque apparently won't even be visible from Ground Zero:

    [T]he proposed mosque would not be located “at” Ground Zero, but two blocks north of it.... some of the concern over this mosque, especially among people who do not live in New York City, is based on a misunderstanding of the geography of Lower Manhattan. This is an area that had significant high-rise development before New York imposed setback requirements and floor-area ratio maximums (limits on how many square feet of building you can put on a lot). As a result, the area is denser and more canyon-like than Midtown.

    This means you can be two blocks away from something without any sense that you’re near it. City Hall is four blocks from Ground Zero, but you’d never stand there and think “I’m right near Ground Zero.” There is even a strip club three blocks south of Ground Zero, but nobody seems to have noticed that it is sullying the memory of the place.

    In most cities, including Washington, 13 stories constitute a very tall building. But in the environment of Lower Manhattan, Cordoba House will be just another structure—which is not exactly consistent with the view that it is a Towering Monument to Jihad. In short, people are overestimating the extent to which this building will interact with, or be noticeable from, the World Trade Center site.
    I don't know if that's true, but it's something that makes me wonder. Anyway, I think our church would be sensitive to such things, and I don't like the idea of campaigns to stop the construction of religious buildings based on the religion involved. What's sauce for the Muslims would be sauce for the Mormons.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Jeff Lebowski
    Corporate lackey for Jesus
    • Nov 2008
    • 69528

    #2
    Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
    I am going to be flamed by some here for this, but the Ground Zero Mosque doesn't bother me all that much - at least, as I understyand what is proposed. Do I really wish the Islamic group planning to build the mosque would not build it there? Do I hope they change their minds? I sure do, but I don't think any legal steps should be taken to stop them.

    Why do I wish they would not build it? Because of a pure good manners and sensitivity to a hallowed place. If the LDS Church proposed building a large and impressive temple, visible from the site of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, that would be just as offensive and insensitive.

    Bu in this case it's interesting to me that the mosque apparently won't even be visible from Ground Zero:



    I don't know if that's true, but it's something that makes me wonder. Anyway, I think our church would be sensitive to such things, and I don't like the idea of campaigns to stop the construction of religious buildings based on the religion involved. What's sauce for the Muslims would be sauce for the Mormons.
    This is correct. It is not on top of ground zero. It is at the former site of a Burlington Coat Factory storefront.

    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

    Comment

    • PaloAltoCougar
      Semper infra dignitatem
      • Nov 2008
      • 16921

      #3
      This really ought to be a non-issue. If the mosque overlooked GZ, then one could argue that its presence was offensive, just as I would if one wanted to put up garish storefronts and neon signs like those at Times Square. But since the location is not within sight of GZ, then distance becomes irrelevant whether it's two blocks over or in Washington Heights.

      To seek to deny the use permit based solely on a particular religion is very un-American.

      Comment

      • Jeff Lebowski
        Corporate lackey for Jesus
        • Nov 2008
        • 69528

        #4
        Wait. Why did this deserve a new thread?
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

        Comment

        • mUUser
          Giggity
          • Jul 2009
          • 1142

          #5
          I too am hesitant to oppose it.

          Perhaps a little off topic, but I remember trying to get an LDS Church built near our house, in an area of other churches, but because of the outcry of the surrounding neighbors (based on the city council meetings I attended, I'm calling it bigotry), took several years and many $$ to get it approved.

          We owned the property and had it properly zoned WELL before housing communities in the neighborhood were approved and built. It was well-known an LDS Church would eventually be built in that location. :swear:

          Comment

          • Color Me Badd Fan
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 12519

            #6
            Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
            I am going to be flamed by some here for this, but the Ground Zero Mosque doesn't bother me all that much - at least, as I understyand what is proposed. Do I really wish the Islamic group planning to build the mosque would not build it there? Do I hope they change their minds? I sure do, but I don't think any legal steps should be taken to stop them.

            Why do I wish they would not build it? Because of a pure good manners and sensitivity to a hallowed place. If the LDS Church proposed building a large and impressive temple, visible from the site of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, that would be just as offensive and insensitive.

            Bu in this case it's interesting to me that the mosque apparently won't even be visible from Ground Zero:



            I don't know if that's true, but it's something that makes me wonder. Anyway, I think our church would be sensitive to such things, and I don't like the idea of campaigns to stop the construction of religious buildings based on the religion involved. What's sauce for the Muslims would be sauce for the Mormons.
            The part about lower Manhattan being cavernous is true, but that doesn't mean that every side of Ground Zero is covered with enormous buildings. The side facing Wall Street (East)- yes absolutely and the same thing with the Western side. But this thing is going to be to the north ground zero.

            Most north to south city block in NYC are only 1/20th of a mile. This is a little different in lower Manhattan where the streets aren't numbered. Still the distance, if at all, wouldn't be much greater. So we're dealing with 13 story Mosque that is 1/10th of a mile away from ground zero.
            Last edited by Color Me Badd Fan; 08-16-2010, 04:42 PM.
            Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

            Comment

            • LA Ute
              Receiver of Memory
              • Nov 2008
              • 19512

              #7
              Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
              Wait. Why did this deserve a new thread?
              Because I didn't know there was a thread already. I should have known. Feel free to merge them if you wish.
              “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
              ― W.H. Auden


              "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
              -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


              "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
              --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

              Comment

              • LA Ute
                Receiver of Memory
                • Nov 2008
                • 19512

                #8
                Originally posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
                The part about lower Manhattan being cavernous is true, but that doesn't mean that every side of Ground Zero is covered with enormous buildings. The side facing Wall Street (East)- yes absolutely and the same thing with the Western side. But this thing is going to be to the north ground zero.

                Most north to south city block in NYC are only 1/20th of a mile. This is a little different in lower Manhattan where the streets are numbered. Still the distance, if at all, wouldn't be much greater. So we're dealing with 13 story Mosque that is 1/10th of a mile away from ground zero.
                If people are going to be standing at Ground Zero and the monument that will be built there someday, and see a huge mosque looming over the site, then that is offensive. I just don't know what can be done about it other than to persuade the group that wants to build the mosque to build it somewhere else on Manhattan. I'd be in favor of giving them financial incentives to accomplish that.
                “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                ― W.H. Auden


                "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                Comment

                • Color Me Badd Fan
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 12519

                  #9
                  Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                  If people are going to be standing at Ground Zero and the monument that will be built there someday, and see a huge mosque looming over the site, then that is offensive. I just don't know what can be done about it other than to persuade the group that wants to build the mosque to build it somewhere else on Manhattan. I'd be in favor of giving them financial incentives to accomplish that.
                  I don't think anything can be done to force them out. As I said in the other thread, no true conservative should want the powers that be in NYC to force these guys out as long as they've jumped through all the hoops (and apparently they've done that).

                  But the question of whether it is insensitive is a totally different point. There are rows of massive buildings to the east of ground zero, that's where Wall Street is. There is also a row of massive buildings to the West. To the north, where the mosque is supposed to built, the size of the buildings are more up and down. When I lived there, I didn't spend a ton of time down there so I'm not sure if it will be visible, certainly there are tons of buildings taller than 13 stories in close proximity. But it's still only 1/10th of a mile away. It will occupy a prominent spot very close to the site.
                  Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

                  Comment

                  • Flystripper
                    Degenerate Gambler
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 14089

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                    Wait. Why did this deserve a new thread?
                    good question!
                    Dyslexics are teople poo...

                    Comment

                    • LA Ute
                      Receiver of Memory
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 19512

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                      good question!
                      I almost never go to the water cooler so I didn't know there was a thread there. I was interested in the Mormon angle on this - the idea of building a temple on the edge of the Mountain Meadows site seemed like an interesting analogy to the proposed Ground Zero mosque (which I think the proponents have a right to build).
                      “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                      ― W.H. Auden


                      "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                      -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                      "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                      --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                      Comment

                      • YOhio
                        Hipster Mode
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 26165

                        #12
                        Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                        I almost never go to the water cooler so I didn't know there was a thread there. I was interested in the Mormon angle on this - the idea of building a temple on the edge of the Mountain Meadows site seemed like an interesting analogy to the proposed Ground Zero mosque (which I think the proponents have a right to build).
                        Yeah, way to tick off the board admin. You're on thin ice as it is then you go and pull this kind of stunt.

                        Comment

                        • LA Ute
                          Receiver of Memory
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 19512

                          #13
                          Originally posted by YOhio View Post
                          Yeah, way to tick off the board admin. You're on thin ice as it is then you go and pull this kind of stunt.
                          Yeah, well I knew you guys would start trying to control how people post. It was only a matter of time before you started exerting subtle pressure to do things the way you want them done.
                          “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                          ― W.H. Auden


                          "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                          -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                          "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                          --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                          Comment

                          • LA Ute
                            Receiver of Memory
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 19512

                            #14
                            We have our own challenges with getting buildings approved, but the issues are entirely different:

                            LDS Church appears clear of legal hurdles in East Hempfield Township
                            “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                            ― W.H. Auden


                            "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                            -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                            "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                            --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                            Comment

                            • Green Monstah
                              Royal Rooter
                              • Aug 2010
                              • 13926

                              #15
                              Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                              We have our own challenges with getting buildings approved, but the issues are entirely different:

                              LDS Church appears clear of legal hurdles in East Hempfield Township
                              I served in the town of West Linn, OR, and they had a huge battle getting their church built. Of course, the reasons for opposition were all secular in nature, but having experienced the dark, religious underbelly of West Linn, I feel completely confident that the troubles were the result of religious bias. It's a wealthy city with lots of Mormons AND anti-Mormon Christians (people would literally anti our contacts within minutes of our departure).
                              Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                              "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

                              Comment

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