I learned in church today

[creekster]

I am skeptical that such a metric exists, at least in the formula you describe. Has anyone else here ever heard of such a thing?

[Uncle Ted]

Yeah, well that's when the talks come about how someone had to choose between paying their tithing or buying food, and they paid their tithing, and a bag of groceries mysteriously appeared on their doorstep, or a check for the exact amount of money they needed for groceries showed up, or something like that. In other words, if you have enough faith and pay your tithing, no matter how much you'll have left over, you'll be provided for miraculously.

That didn't work all that well for me as a poor student in college. I had to get students loans so I could be counted as a full tithe payer.

[Portland Ute]

That didn't work all that well for me as a poor student in college. I had to get students loans so I could be counted as a full tithe payer.

[Northwestcoug]

Several years ago we had a bishop that needed additional FO funds from the members, so he quietly handed about 30 of us a "Private" envelope with a letter asking us to consider increasing our FO. In fact, it even suggested an amount.....about $300/month.

I'm sure some were upset, but I was grateful. Someone in the church finally had the balls to "teach" me that FO at our income level was more than $50 month. I'm not an expert in most church things as our family didn't attend chruch growing up, so I basically thought a proper fast offering was one days food. I don't adhere to that anymore.

I genuinely appreciated that letter.

We have friends that live below the poverty line. They are a family of 6, and they pay a full tithe. The wife takes care of paying both tithing and fast offerings. Recently the husband asked how much they were paying in fast offerings, and she told him 100/month. This kind of floored him, since this amount approximates what they pay in tithing. When they talked about it, she told him that she had been steadily increasing the amount she paid because of what she kept hearing over the pulpit. It hasn't been a constant refrain, but she heard the need to pay more multiple times.

I won't get into any discussion about blessings for paying more. For all I know, they have been blessed for paying what I feel is an exhorbitant amount. But this is a faithful person who barely has enough for her family, who has taken her leaders' message to heart. Shouldn't one of them, when seeing how much she pays for fast offerings, counsel her that it might be too much?

[Uncle Ted]

I am skeptical that such a metric exists, at least in the formula you describe. Has anyone else here ever heard of such a thing?

This (slightly dated) blog entry implies that there is some comparisons of full tithe payers percentages going on...

Our stake president spoke at our ward conference, to the Sunday school class (and this is in Rexburg), and told us some startling facts. He said that in the United States, college-age members contribute more per capita towards fast offerings than older adults. He suggests that this is because too many members are buying houses and vehicles far beyond their needs and money that could be going towards fast offerings and charitable contributions are instead making payments against totally unnecessary items of luxury.

So while I'm thinking about all the implications of that statement, he surprised us again. He said that on the Wasatch front, only 19% of all Church members are full tithe payers. Nineteen percent. Even if in Utah the activity rate is only 50% (anyone got stats on that?), that means that among active members only 2 of every 5 members are paying a full tithe.

So, Niku, are the numbers in your stake lower than 19%?

BTW, what the hell is wrong with those wasatch front mormons?

[Pheidippides]

Maybe the low full tithe payer percentage has more to do with the economy. Unemployment is high and people are hurting. Wage inflation is low.

My thoughts exactly, when I heard them speaking. "It's the economy, duh!"

I am skeptical that such a metric exists, at least in the formula you describe. Has anyone else here ever heard of such a thing?

I'd never heard of it either, and I'm skeptical as well. But they actually said that we flunked the formula from the pulpit today, and my bishop is not typically an exaggerator. It could be that he's getting bad information from the Stake?

This (slightly dated) blog entry implies that there is some comparisons of full tithe payers percentages going on...



So, Niku, are the numbers in your stake lower than 19%?

BTW, what the hell is wrong with those wasatch front mormons?

No clue. They didn't give us exact numbers. Just said that we (the ward) didn't pass whatever the test was last year.

To SoCalCoug's point, they didn't share any of those stories. They simply just said that you needed to pay tithing before you did anything else and, while acknowledging that the economy is tough, that given the choice between tithing and necessities, you should choose tithing.

[TripletDaddy]

They simply just said that you needed to pay tithing before you did anything else and, while acknowledging that the economy is tough, that given the choice between tithing and necessities, you should choose tithing.

The Lord forgives. The landlord doesn't.

[Uncle Ted]

No clue. They didn't give us exact numbers. Just said that we (the ward) didn't pass whatever the test was last year.

I am guessing "the test" is about 20%. I recall that is about the average percentage of TR holders for the adult membership.

When shooting the bull with your bishop some time you should just ask what percentage of the adult members are TR holders. If it is more than 19% then you will know that your SP is full of crap.

[Northwestcoug]

The Lord forgives. The landlord doesn't.

Hey, I like that! I could use it for a ton of excuses.

The Lord forgives. The (fill in the blank) doesn't.

[Pheidippides]

I am guessing "the test" is about 20%. I recall that is about the average percentage of TR holders for the adult membership.

When shooting the bull with your bishop some time you should just ask what percentage of the adult members are TR holders. If it is more than 19% then you will know that your SP is full of crap.

I used to know that - at least I did during our first year. It was more than 19%, even when counting inactives.

It was pretty clear from the talk that there was some sort of actual metric of full tithe payers - on the end of year report - over membership, and a quota over which you were good and under which you were bad. I think the phrase that they used was "tithing compliant" or some such thing like that. I can only report what I heard - I'm as skeptical as Creekster is.

[Moliere]

This is an interesting idea, Ted.

I think niku & wife have the right to feel put off if that's how they took the message. Nobody likes to feel like they're being shaken down for money, especially by religious organizations.

We got the Friends of Scouting shakedown today. It didn't go over too well.

Hey, I like that! I could use it for a ton of excuses.

The Lord forgives. The (fill in the blank) doesn't.

The Lord forgives. The wife doesn't.

[Moliere]

Our sacrament meeting today was filmed by a Belgian news crew from VRT. They are doing some kind of peice on a member in our ward who is in the MoTab choir.

They weren't allowed to have the camera in the chapel proper, but they were allowed to have the doors opened and film into the chapel. I ended up sitting right behind the subject and his family, so I was camera-conscious most of the meeting.

That sounds entirely reasonable. You can film the meeting, just not from across the door line

[Northwestcoug]

The Lord forgives. The wife doesn't.

Damn. I guess it can't work for everything.

[TripletDaddy]

Hey, I like that! I could use it for a ton of excuses.

The Lord forgives. The (fill in the blank) doesn't.

Not really, but there are a few that would work. And for the most part, it is true.

The danger in relying on these magically appearing groceries stories is that the scriptures dont promise temporal blessings specifically as a result of paying tithing. Also, it has never made much sense to me to tout the magically appearing groceries in tithing stories. To be a full tithe payer, you don't have to be current at that very second. Some folks show up to tithing settlement and cut a check or settle up a the end of the year. Great, no problem. So if you have to pay your rent or pay tithing, why wouldn't you pay your rent? Just pay your tithing later and you are still a full tithe payer.

The best reason to pay tithing is because we have been asked to do so, not because one time when you did it you received a random phone call offering you a job. Because 99% of the time, you will cut your tithing check and won't come home to a doorway filled with magic groceries or lucrative job offers.

Be smart. Pay your rent and keep a roof over your head.

[Jacob]

Jacob/Surfah, I get that you don't understand and I don't expect you to. I already said this was about the delivery and not the message itself. And maybe you had to be there. But you ought to try seeing this from the point of view of a person who doesn't really believe in divine inspiration of leadership to any great extent and is just trying to do the best he can while following his own counsel. Talks like this leave me saying (pardon the french) fuck that, I don't need this sort of bullying, I'll find somewhere else to go where they won't try to guilt trip/manipulate me based on what they say (note that fast offerings was a part of this). But it's never that simple, and the emotion isn't anything a bit of time won't quell, because the proper response is of course nothing. It does have me worried about what sorts of things will actually happen when my daughter, now just shy of 11, is in YW though. Especially because of an aside on Sabbath day observance and bishop's youth meetings that was part of the talk, but that's a subject for a different time.

I guess I do understand. That is pretty much what I said.