I learned in church today

[doctorcoug]

Fascinating to watch people scramble to put a negative spin on this.

I'm not putting a negative spin. I'm showing that, what appears to be an amazing statistic is not.

The better statistic to flaunt would be retention. While my mission had 30 fold more baptisms per stake, our retention likely pales to that found in the Provo mission.

[jay santos]

11 yo kid in my primary class "Brother Santos, did you know that Bigfoot might be Cain because Cain was cursed to roam the Earth and never die? And his curse might be that he's big and hairy and stuff."

me: "OK, yeah I can see that but how did he survive the flood?"

theories from the class:

--good swimmer
--sneaked in the ark and hid
--rode a whale


I did recover things and we had a pretty good lesson on Abinadi, only to completely lose control of the class when we got to Mosiah 17:13.

[venkman]

11 yo kid in my primary class "Brother Santos, did you know that Bigfoot might be Cain because Cain was cursed to roam the Earth and never die? And his curse might be that he's big and hairy and stuff."

me: "OK, yeah I can see that but how did he survive the flood?"

theories from the class:

--good swimmer
--sneaked in the ark and hid
--rode a whale


I did recover things and we had a pretty good lesson on Abinadi, only to completely lose control of the class when we got to Mosiah 17:13.

Rode a whale, lol. Gotta love those 11 year olds.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

From the George Albert Smith lesson:

Coming into the day, I was under the impression that I would be teaching Gospel Essentials on prophets as well as the Elder's Quorum lesson on Sustaining Church Leaders. (Turns out that my EQ lesson got pushed back a week so a couple stake guys could do a lesson on family history.)

Anyway, the preparation became an interesting comparison. There seems to be this struggle between driving the point home that these men are imperfect and fallible but in the next breath, especially in the priesthood manual, drop an fairly heavy hand when it comes to voicing any type of criticism of said imperfections.

One of our classmates in GE made an attempt to point out that sometimes things are said that just aren't true. Given that the guy is African, there was little doubt in my mind that his comment was referring to the recent developments and commentaries. The Ward Mission Leader jumped in at this point and bore his testimony about how we will be held accountable on whether we follow the prophet, not so much on which direction the prophet leads us. At this point the relief society were making their presence known at the door, so I was forced to wrap up but was looking forward to carry over the conversation to EQ, only to have to hear about indexing.

This will give me another week to decide how much discussion I ask for.

[ERCougar]

Coming into the day, I was under the impression that I would be teaching Gospel Essentials on prophets as well as the Elder's Quorum lesson on Sustaining Church Leaders. (Turns out that my EQ lesson got pushed back a week so a couple stake guys could do a lesson on family history.)

Anyway, the preparation became an interesting comparison. There seems to be this struggle between driving the point home that these men are imperfect and fallible but in the next breath, especially in the priesthood manual, drop an fairly heavy hand when it comes to voicing any type of criticism of said imperfections.

One of our classmates in GE made an attempt to point out that sometimes things are said that just aren't true. Given that the guy is African, there was little doubt in my mind that his comment was referring to the recent developments and commentaries. The Ward Mission Leader jumped in at this point and bore his testimony about how we will be held accountable on whether we follow the prophet, not so much on which direction the prophet leads us. At this point the relief society were making their presence known at the door, so I was forced to wrap up but was looking forward to carry over the conversation to EQ, only to have to hear about indexing.

This will give me another week to decide how much discussion I ask for.

I groaned a little when I saw the topic today, but it ended up being a really interesting discussion. The point was made, sort of as a combo of a few comments, that when we sustain people, we're not sustaining the person as much as the organization. We may be convinced that the person is wrong, but out of both a humble awareness that our opinion may be wrong and our respect for the church, which by and large is a good organization, we support the decision that is made. We all do this in various organizations that we belong to. Weve all had various bosses and coworkers with whom we disagree, but we're willing to put that aside at some point because the unity of the organization is more important. I'm sure we all know the guy that has to have his way on everything--even if he's right, sometimes he needs to shut up.

Also, I got to read an old favorite of Hugh B Brown:

'I have been very grateful that the freedom, dignity, and integrity of the individual are basic in church doctrine. We are free to think and express our opinions in the church. Fear will not stifle thought. God himself refuses to trammel free agency even though its exercise sometimes teaches painful lessons. Both creative science and revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the climate of freedom.…

We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent—if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression.…

We should be dauntless in our pursuit of truth and resist all demands for unthinking conformity. No one would have us become mere tape recorders of other people’s thoughts. We should be modest and teachable and seek to know the truth by study and faith. There have been times when progress was halted by thought control. Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and that competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail. Knowledge is the most complete and dependable when all points of view are heard.…

One of the most important things in the world is freedom of the mind; from this all other freedoms spring. Such freedom is necessarily dangerous, for one cannot think right without running the risk of thinking wrong, but generally more thinking is the antidote for the evils that spring from wrong thinking. More thinking is required, and we should all exercise our God-given right to think and be unafraid to express our opinions, with proper respect for those to whom we talk and proper acknowledgment of our own shortcomings.

We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts.'

I find that Elders Quorum tends to be much more inviting to open thought than Sunday school. I wonder why that is.

[Portland Ute]

This will give me another week to decide how much discussion I ask for.

Our EQ teacher decided to highlight the mention on the lesson about our president not being chosen in a "conclave"

He prodded answers about what a conclave is and how a Pope is chosen.

After several minutes of... light minded... discussion about the Catholic process of a conclave, the teacher said, "It just seems rather hokey compared to what we do."

Since I was in a particularly irritated mood already this afternoon, I raised my hand and I said, "Really, we ought to be careful. If we believe that God can work through his representatives? We, as LDS, claim that same thing when our processes or methods of doing things look strange to the outside world. I don't think we ought to criticize. Outside onlookers of our process could take a very similar cynical and mocking tone by saying that our process lacks any sort of inspiration and is just a system of several men moving up the ladder in succession with no questions or discussion."

(Paraphrased, but pretty darned close)

Of course, i got a few arrogant chortles and head shakes and the instructors and others dismissed my point by saying, "Well, we are God's church. They aren't."

I wanted to respond, "So, that gives us the right to ridicule the way other churches choose leaders?"

But I thought better of it. I'd already made my comment and was wearing a blue shirt and a loud (but fashionable) tie. I'd already given them enough rope for today.

Today was a day where I felt completely like a duck out of water.

[Portland Ute]

Also, I got to read an old favorite of Hugh B Brown:


I find that Elders Quorum tends to be much more inviting to open thought than Sunday school. I wonder why that is.

What a cool quote.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Fascinating to watch people scramble to put a negative spin on this.

I am sorry, I had to help the kids put on their shoes before I could finish my comment. A young man in my ward returned home from the Provo mission four weeks ago. He speaks of a membership base that is extremely strong and supportive of the general missionary effort and welcoming of new members. They give the missionaries a relatively high number of referrals per family and host missionary discussions in their homes.

The church is a big fellowshipping organization for a relatively large portion of the general public in that mission, so perhaps there is a strong confluence of member support, organizational support, friendship/fellowship/service opportunities, and yes even societal pressure which combine to make joining the church a highly attractive proposition for nonmembers in the Provo mission.

[Jeff Lebowski]

We had stake conf. this weekend. I have always considered our SP to be kind a hardliner, but he gave two great talks this weekend. He begged us to not judge one another and told us to keep in mind that there is a typically a struggle or two going on in every home of which we may not be aware and that we should always treat one another with love and kindness. He talked about going after the lost sheep. He told parents to love their teenage/college-age children no matter what and that none of us should ever made a big deal about multiple piercings, tattoos, long hair, etc.

Great messages. I was inspired.

[ERCougar]

What a cool quote.

Isnt it? I came across it a few years ago (maybe even on here) and have it saved for use when I need it. I love Hugh Brown.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Isnt it? I came across it a few years ago (maybe even on here) and have it saved for use when I need it. I love Hugh Brown.

I quote it all the time.

Here is the full text:

http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/brown-final.php

[SoCalCoug]

We had ward conference today, and of course the entire stake presidency, including President Goldfish Killer was on the stand. My apparently apostate wife had not just snacks, but in fact lunch for our two youngest in her diaper bag. Had they not been on the stand, we would have just fed them in the pews, like we always do.

But especially since we were only a few rows back, it would have been too obvious, so I took one of them outside to the car with his lunch.

You know, I might be coming around on this. I essentially have a mandate from the stake presidency to go out to my car with my son and his lunch and play on my phone during sacrament meeting, while my son eats. I guess I can live with that.

[Uncle Ted]

We had ward conference today, and of course the entire stake presidency, including President Goldfish Killer was on the stand. My apparently apostate wife had not just snacks, but in fact lunch for our two youngest in her diaper bag. Had they not been on the stand, we would have just fed them in the pews, like we always do.

But especially since we were only a few rows back, it would have been too obvious, so I took one of them outside to the car with his lunch.

You know, I might be coming around on this. I essentially have a mandate from the stake presidency to go out to my car with my son and his lunch and play on my phone during sacrament meeting, while my son eats. I guess I can live with that.

You should just take take your son to Mickey D's. They have free WiFi and it will save from having to clean up the lunch mess in the car.

[jay santos]

Also, one of the kids in my class asked if I knew the password for the church's wifi. I asked him what it was. He said it starts with a P and ends with a 47. He said it works for churches and seminary buildings.

[Moliere]

We had maybe one of the best talks I've ever heard in sac meeting. It was on rescue, and instead of rescuing inactives, the brother spoke about how, while he was growing up, his family had dozens and dozens of people come through their home as their parents provided shelter/food/help where needed both to extended family members and just people in the ward. It was very inspiring and quite possible the best call to be Christ like I've heard in a while.