This may have been dealt with in another thread, but I wanted to couch this in my own terms. What I really want this thread to be is a discussion of what LDS doctrine is, or where there may be gaps in what the doctrine teaches. I would really like for it not to be "why LDS doctrine doesn't make sense."
So my understanding of the atonement (thumb nail) is that as a result of the fall sin enters into the world and all men and women consequently sin. Because of their sins they become unclean and cannot enter the presence of God. Also, justice demands that a penalty be paid for sin. Since no one can pay for their own sins, it was necessary for a perfect being who was sinless to receive the punishment for the sins of everyone. This Savior then demands, in order for people to have access to the effects of his sacrifice, that they do certain things. Once those conditions are met, his payment for them becomes effective and one is no longer unclean.
That may not be exactly right but I think it is mostly right. If it is fundamentally lacking in some respect I'm sure someone will tell me. So here are my questions, in no particular order.
1. Why does Adam and Eve sinning cause the world to be fallen? Is a fallen world necessary for me to sin (IOW, Adam and Eve sinned, or at least transgressed in the garden, not a fallen world). Does fallen mean anything other than sin happened for the first time.
2. Why do my sins make me "unclean." What does that mean?
3. Why can't I go back to God's presence having sinned? Can He not be around me, or it is me who can't be around him? And why not? What law prevents that? What mechanism or entity prevents it? Why is it so?
4. What is meant by "justice?" Is there a higher enforcement mechanism than God? Or is justice another way of saying something God requires? If it is an "eternal law" who makes the law? Who enforces it? What is an eternal law?
5. Why is punishment or suffering necessary to "pay the price for sin?" Why must justice be paid at all? Why must it be paid in the form of suffering? What is it about feeling pain that removes my "uncleaness?" Why can't I pay that price my self? What difference does it make that a perfect being suffers as opposed to me?
6. Having suffered on my behalf, why does the Saviour make his gift to me conditional? Does he have to? Could he simply pay for me with nothing else? If he "has to" make it conditional, is that because of another law, is there some enforcement mechanism if he doesn't? Is his suffering ineffective if the gift is not conditional? Does he get to set the conditions or does someone else tell him what they must be? If the payment is ineffective without the conditions, why?
I'm trying to get deeper, if possible, than the stock answer I laid out above. I think most of the discussion I have heard or read centers around laying it out logically like I did above. But that being logical rests on many, many assumptions. For example "well of course justice must be paid" (why, what is it, how does it work, who says, etc.).
So again, this is not a bash. This is more "can anyone tell me what our theology says about this or alternatively say that we don't know." TIA.
So my understanding of the atonement (thumb nail) is that as a result of the fall sin enters into the world and all men and women consequently sin. Because of their sins they become unclean and cannot enter the presence of God. Also, justice demands that a penalty be paid for sin. Since no one can pay for their own sins, it was necessary for a perfect being who was sinless to receive the punishment for the sins of everyone. This Savior then demands, in order for people to have access to the effects of his sacrifice, that they do certain things. Once those conditions are met, his payment for them becomes effective and one is no longer unclean.
That may not be exactly right but I think it is mostly right. If it is fundamentally lacking in some respect I'm sure someone will tell me. So here are my questions, in no particular order.
1. Why does Adam and Eve sinning cause the world to be fallen? Is a fallen world necessary for me to sin (IOW, Adam and Eve sinned, or at least transgressed in the garden, not a fallen world). Does fallen mean anything other than sin happened for the first time.
2. Why do my sins make me "unclean." What does that mean?
3. Why can't I go back to God's presence having sinned? Can He not be around me, or it is me who can't be around him? And why not? What law prevents that? What mechanism or entity prevents it? Why is it so?
4. What is meant by "justice?" Is there a higher enforcement mechanism than God? Or is justice another way of saying something God requires? If it is an "eternal law" who makes the law? Who enforces it? What is an eternal law?
5. Why is punishment or suffering necessary to "pay the price for sin?" Why must justice be paid at all? Why must it be paid in the form of suffering? What is it about feeling pain that removes my "uncleaness?" Why can't I pay that price my self? What difference does it make that a perfect being suffers as opposed to me?
6. Having suffered on my behalf, why does the Saviour make his gift to me conditional? Does he have to? Could he simply pay for me with nothing else? If he "has to" make it conditional, is that because of another law, is there some enforcement mechanism if he doesn't? Is his suffering ineffective if the gift is not conditional? Does he get to set the conditions or does someone else tell him what they must be? If the payment is ineffective without the conditions, why?
I'm trying to get deeper, if possible, than the stock answer I laid out above. I think most of the discussion I have heard or read centers around laying it out logically like I did above. But that being logical rests on many, many assumptions. For example "well of course justice must be paid" (why, what is it, how does it work, who says, etc.).
So again, this is not a bash. This is more "can anyone tell me what our theology says about this or alternatively say that we don't know." TIA.
Comment