Historicity of The Book of Mormon

[Paperback Writer]

hmm...maybe what he's saying is really true but it sure might seem like obfuscation to someone not as smart.

summary of the article:
--a lot of people say stuff like "give me the top three historical evidences for the BOM"
--here's why asking for that is problematic: lot of reasons which don't really seem to answer the question why that's such a problematic thing to ask
--in conclusion "there are hundreds of articles and books chock full of historical evidences for BOM"...but I'm not gonna give you my top three.

It would be refreshing to just answer the damn question. "Others may have different list, but here's my top three."

Think what would your response be if you were asked to provide your top three reasons for something.
Top three reasons you believe in God.
Top three reasons BYU football will win 10 games.
Top three reasons Coke is better than Pepsi.
Top three reasons Android beats IOS.

You would toss out your top three. If at any point you say, "I think you're going about it wrong", I become highly skeptical. Wait a second, what the hell's going on, I just want three reasons to support your statement that BYU will win 10 games. "no, no, no, this is a very problematic concept. you don't understand the issue. blah blah blah." Wait, what?

Maybe the obfuscation is due to the fact BYU football hasn't won 10 games for the past three seasons. So if they don't win 10 in 2015, critics will insist that BYU football is "not true". They're not even Christian in a top conference. They open the 2015 season against an opponent who hasn't lost a home opener in 30 years. A very problematic concept indeed.

For the record: I think BYU has a good chance to upset Nebraska and win 10 games.

[Jeff Lebowski]

hmm...maybe what he's saying is really true but it sure might seem like obfuscation to someone not as smart.

summary of the article:
--a lot of people say stuff like "give me the top three historical evidences for the BOM"
--here's why asking for that is problematic: lot of reasons which don't really seem to answer the question why that's such a problematic thing to ask
--in conclusion "there are hundreds of articles and books chock full of historical evidences for BOM"...but I'm not gonna give you my top three.

It would be refreshing to just answer the damn question. "Others may have different list, but here's my top three."

Think what would your response be if you were asked to provide your top three reasons for something.
Top three reasons you believe in God.
Top three reasons BYU football will win 10 games.
Top three reasons Coke is better than Pepsi.
Top three reasons Android beats IOS.

You would toss out your top three. If at any point you say, "I think you're going about it wrong", I become highly skeptical. Wait a second, what the hell's going on, I just want three reasons to support your statement that BYU will win 10 games. "no, no, no, this is a very problematic concept. you don't understand the issue. blah blah blah." Wait, what?

DP is the master of obfuscation and intellectual dishonesty.

[ERCougar]

I would say he gives his "top reasons" in these two paragraphs:

For example, Joseph Smith and the book itself declare that it was written by ancient American prophets. That, in itself, doesn’t prove that it actually was, but it certainly provides a reason to consider the idea. Moreover, independent accounts from seemingly sane, honest, reliable witnesses attest to the existence of purportedly ancient golden plates and other artifacts connected with the record. They were produced by somebody. And they testify to the perceptible involvement of divine beings with the book, which plainly removes it from the realm of simple, ordinary historical fiction.

Furthermore, various characteristics of the book — not limited to its language, the speed of its dictation, the apparent multiplicity of its writers, and its sheer complexity — seem to place its creation beyond the capacity of any 19th century person who’s been plausibly suggested as its author.

So: the witnesses, the language and scope of the output (the uneducated farm boy idea), and multiple authors.

That's fine, but wasn't the question regarding archaeological evidence?

[SeattleUte]

You have to decide whether even to engage with someone like Peterson on the terms that he lays out for engagement. Because that's all he's after--engagement. If he gets you to engage him when he says, "prove Mary wasn't a virgin when she got pregnant with Jesus," he wins. His bait is easily cast--it's possible to make the same statement about anything--virgin birth, Hobbits, whatever. Just ignore him.

[Eddie]

You have to decide whether even to engage with someone like Peterson on the terms that he lays out for engagement. Because that's all he's after--engagement. If he gets you to engage him when he says, "prove Mary wasn't a virgin when she got pregnant with Jesus," he wins. His bait is easily cast--it's possible to make the same statement about anything--virgin birth, Hobbits, whatever. Just ignore him.

Sounds like a quote I've heard a few times about wrestling with a pig.

[Harry Tic]

I guess this is as good a place as any to post this. Bill "William" Hamblin has retired from BYU, which should give him lots of time to develop his hobby-horse riding skills, chief among them bitching and moaning about how unappreciated "Ancient Book of Mormon Studies" was at BYU. The martyr complex is strong with this one.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/enigmat...&st_refQuery=/

While I would like to see a greater curricular place for Mormon Studies in general at BYU, I must say that after reading his screed I came away with greater respect for his dean and other university administrators.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I guess this is as good a place as any to post this. Bill "William" Hamblin has retired from BYU, which should give him lots of time to develop his hobby-horse riding skills, chief among them bitching and moaning about how unappreciated "Ancient Book of Mormon Studies" was at BYU. The martyr complex is strong with this one.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/enigmat...&st_refQuery=/

While I would like to see a greater curricular place for Mormon Studies in general at BYU, I must say that after reading his screed I came away with greater respect for his dean and other university administrators.

Wow. What a sad, bitter little man.

It is funny how he spins that. Yes, a guy who is hired as a history prof is going to be encouraged to build his academic credentials in legitimate venues rather than those little pseudo-journals with an inbred editorial staff. Good grief.

A year or two ago just for fun, I suggested to Dan Peterson on FB that calling the Interpreter a "peer-reviewed journal" was disingenuous. Yowza, you should have seen the reaction.

[Harry Tic]

Wow. What a sad, bitter little man.

It is funny how he spins that. Yes, a guy who is hired as a history prof is going to be encouraged to build his academic credentials in legitimate venues rather than those little pseudo-journals with an inbred editorial staff. Good grief.

A year or two ago just for fun, I suggested to Dan Peterson on FB that calling the Interpreter a "peer-reviewed journal" was disingenuous. Yowza, you should have seen the reaction.

Such a lack of judgment on his part. He doesn't seem to have the good sense to know when he is embarrassing himself in public either by calling attention to the fact that he wasn't getting merit increases because his supervisors didn't think he was producing relevant scholarship. He doesn't seem to realize how poorly he comes off. And all this on the heels of the public whipping he took from Philip Jenkins. Yikes.

The guy needs to forget all the grudge matches and third-rate apologetics and just play with his grandkids and catch up on Jeopardy.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Such a lack of judgment on his part. He doesn't seem to have the good sense to know when he is embarrassing himself in public either by calling attention to the fact that he wasn't getting merit increases because his supervisors didn't think he was producing relevant scholarship. He doesn't seem to realize how poorly he comes off. And all this on the heels of the public whipping he took from Philip Jenkins. Yikes.

The guy needs to forget all the grudge matches and third-rate apologetics and just play with his grandkids and catch up on Jeopardy.

Link?

[Harry Tic]

Link?

There are a ton of entries (30+?) on his Engimatic Mirror blog page on Patheos.com. He makes a point, Jenkins responds. Rinse and repeat. Any sympathy I might have felt for the FARMS crew was gone by the end of that debacle: he was in way over his head and lacked even DP's skill at parrying and evasion. He comes off looking especially foolish and out of his depth.

[Uncle Ted]

There are a ton of entries (30+?) on his Engimatic Mirror blog page on Patheos.com. He makes a point, Jenkins responds. Rinse and repeat. Any sympathy I might have felt for the FARMS crew was gone by the end of that debacle: he was in way over his head and lacked even DP's skill at parrying and evasion. He comes off looking especially foolish and out of his depth.

Yeah, that Jenkins/Hamblin BoM war has been something else. There has even been some other LDS apologist that have jumped in just and Jenkins just slaps them back into their place as well. For example...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxious...s-and-oranges/

[wuapinmon]

Yeah, that Jenkins/Hamblin BoM war has been something else. There has even been some other LDS apologist that have jumped in just and Jenkins just slaps them back into their place as well. For example...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxious...s-and-oranges/

Damn! I mean, just, damn! That's a beat down.

[Jeff Lebowski]

There are a ton of entries (30+?) on his Engimatic Mirror blog page on Patheos.com. He makes a point, Jenkins responds. Rinse and repeat. Any sympathy I might have felt for the FARMS crew was gone by the end of that debacle: he was in way over his head and lacked even DP's skill at parrying and evasion. He comes off looking especially foolish and out of his depth.

Holy moly. Bloodbath.

Poor guy doesn't seem to have any self-awareness.

[Harry Tic]

Poor guy doesn't seem to have any self-awareness.

You can tell by his haircut.

[wuapinmon]

Holy moly. Bloodbath.

Poor guy doesn't seem to have any self-awareness.

It's like he can't see that he's being mocked, mercilessly, not just for his beliefs, which seems like how he sees it, but because of the logical fallacies. I spent way too much time reading that, and now I just feel sorry for the man. He makes it sound like all his research does nothing but beg questions.